Friday, April 15, 2011

Are You Dense?

What the hell is wrong with you?

I'm talking to you. The writers who are still thoughtlessly defending legacy publishing.

Unless you're making over a million dollars a year with the Big 6, continuing down the legacy path is a crazy bad idea.

I see the same tired, lame arguments, over and over again. They include:

It's hard to make decent money self-pubbing.

Guess what? It's even harder to make decent money by legacy publishing. Legacy publishing requires a lot of waiting, and a lot of luck. If you're lucky enough to get an agent AND lucky enough to sell the book AND lucky enough that the publisher doesn't screw it up, you'll have a 1 out of 10 chance at earning out your advance. Maybe.

With self-pubbing, you WILL earn money. It may not be a lot at first, but ebooks are forever, and forever is a long time to accrue sales.

Only Joe Konrath and Amanda Hocking make good money self-pubbing.

First of all, anyone who spouts this nonsense is a lazy researcher, because it's a simple Google search to find dozens of authors making good money.

Second of all, this statement could just as well be: Only Stephen King and James Patterson make good money legacy publishing.

If you had to take a shot to try to emulate my career, or try to emulate Stephen King's career, you have a much higher likelihood of success by doing it my way.

The majority of self-pubbed books don't sell many copies.

Neither do the majority of legacy published books.

Here's the simple math. If your book sucks, you'll never get a legacy deal, but you'll sell at least a few copies by self-pubbing.

If your book is awesome, you'll be giving up 70% royalties for 14.9% royalties.

Either way, you make more going indie.

Publishers are essential.

No, they're not. Editing and good covers are essential, and these can be procured for set costs. They aren't worth the 52.5% a publisher takes, forever.

Print is still dominant.

And the T-Rex was still the apex predator for a short time after the meteor hit. Then they all died.

While ebooks may not be an extinction level event, they will become the most popular way to read books.

The gatekeepers are necessary.

I agree. But I don't call these gatekeepers "agents" or "publishers."

I call them "readers."

With all the self-published crap out there, it will be impossible to find anything good.

There are billions of websites on the internet, the majority of them crap. Yet somehow you managed to find my blog.

We live in a world where it is easy to find things that are interesting to us. That won't ever change.

Publishers know quality. They know what sells.

Sure they do. Which is why Snooki got a big push and bombed, and Trapped was rejected by my publisher and is currently in the Top 100. Which means I owe First Book another $500.

If it gets into the top 20, I'll add another $500 on top of that.

The only way I can be validated as a writer is if I'm accepted by the legacy industry.

This is called Stockholm Syndrome. Sales are a much better, and more realistic, form of validation.

If I self-publish, then agents or editors won't want me.

Lazy research again. Agents and editors are actively looking at self-pub success stories, then snapping those authors and books up.

I'll only try to self-publish once I'm guaranteed it is a better move than legacy publishing.

Thanks for making me laugh by using "guarantee" and "publishing" in the same sentence. When you come back to reality, I hope you figure out that each day you don't self-publish is a day you could have earned money but didn't.

That's the bottom line, gang. Every minute of every day, there are new writers jumping on the self-pub bandwagon, beginning to make money.

Every minute you waste is a minute gone forever.

And forever is a long time.

600 comments:

«Oldest   ‹Older   401 – 600 of 600
JL Bryan said...

@Stephen Knight - It doesn't hurt that you write horror and your name looks like Stephen King at first glance :) Congrats on the success!

Anonymous said...

I have such a hard time determining whether or not to self-publish or to go the traditional route. Just seems like there are so many pros and cons to both. I started out self-publishing my book Perceptions of the Curious Mind, but then decided to start looking for an agent. My husband and I just don't have the money to spend on hiring an editing service, marketing package, or other services that would help make my book more appealing to the reader. Cost is one thing that made me turn to looking for an agent and go the traditional publishing route. I guess I figured if I took that route there will be less I have to pay for. I don't know if this is true or not. This is all very confusing to me, which way is really the best. I feel stuck and don't know which way to turn. Any suggestions?

Anonymous said...

@JL Bryan:

You'll find an announcement about Stephen Queen's new book here:

http://www.stephenqueen.co.uk/

...and the music of Stephen Bishop

http://www.stephenbishop.com/

...and the NY Times articles of Stephen Castle!

http://topics.nytimes.com/topics/reference/timestopics/people/c/stephen_castle/index.html

Checkmate!

David Gaughran said...

Burger King did pretty well out of it too.

J.A. Marlow said...

@David Gaughran - Thanks for the link to your blog article. Some of it I already knew, but you had a few new nuggets to chew on. More information is always good! It helps us make good, well grounded decisions.

That's one the interesting and fun (and sometimes frustrating) aspect of Indie publishing. The constant self-education, and the fast rate of change in the industry. It means we can't be complacent about keeping tabs on the changes going on around us.

J.A. Marlow
Into the Forest Shadows: A planet-wide conspiracy awaits at Grandmother's house...

Josie Wade said...

@Ashlynn

I'm going to take a first stab here, but most of the facts are already stated in this blog -- so go there for better advice.

From your blog you said your book is one of poetry and lyric story (?) -- I have a poor memory so correct me if I am wrong.

I don't know much about that field -- but my guess is in this particular case success has more to do with how many people become familiar with your voice as a poet and just getting your work out there and in front of people who will give you good word of mouth recommendations.

On the plus side of having it done professionally I'd say would be you would be eligible for awards that indies will get looked over for. This might a more important consideration for a poet than a fiction writer.

However, you have the potential to reach many more readers through e-publishing than you would through traditional publishing. For example how well stocked are most bookstore's poetry section??? This is a serious consideration.

As far as promoting your book publishers may do something in that area, but my guess you still have to do most of that yourself so you come out even there.

That's all I have. Wish I could be more helpful.

Maybe others could jump in and clarify any loose points.

Josie Wade said...

@Ashlynn

One more thing before I have to go,
poets are usually judged by their body of work, not so much one book or collection. You may be putting too much pressure on this one piece of work and maybe you shouldn't over think it so much. Just get it out there and work on the next one, and the next one and the next one....

Get yourself out there putting different pieces up for sample and get a name for yourself.

Just a thought.

David Gaughran said...

That's great advice. The key to the success of people like Amanda Hocking and Joe was a hell of a lot of hard work. They never gave up, even when they kept getting knocked back. They kept writing, kept producing work, so when opportunity came their way, they were ready to exploit it.

David Gaughran said...

@Romana

If you had any idea how much I enjoyed my pork treats, you would know that I am giving my betas the highest possible compliment.

Karen Woodward said...

Joe, I read your blog every day before I sit down to write. It helps to give me the hope, and perhaps even the audacity, to think that one day my ebook will be for sale in electronic bookstores. Thanks!

Eloheim and Veronica said...

Over at Dean Wesley Smith's site, they were talking about XinXii.

"XinXii is Europe's leading online marketplace for all kind of written works. The platform empowers everyone to market his works in his own XinXii eStore: At XinXii, every author can upload and sell his texts, documents or books (ebook or audiobook version) on the web."


I just uploaded a book. It was super easy and there are no upfront costs. They pay 70% or 40% depending on your price.

http://www.xinxii.com/en/the-choice-for-consciousness-vol-p-327261.html

Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

Things I have learned about self-publishing (so far)

Lundeen Literary said...

y'all gotta read this...

Six Signs You're Not Ready to be a Professional Writer

http://terribleminds.com/ramble/2011/04/18/six-signs-youre-not-ready-to-be-a-professional-writer/

Jenna
@lundeenliterary

Gregory said...

The only downside to self-pubbing is trying to get the stuff released quick enough to satisfy my fans. Wait...is that a downside?

Nightcry

Josie Wade said...

@Gregory

I swear I have a life outside this blog, but I keep getting sidetracked today.

I just finished writing for the night and came back here to see if there were any updates and then I clicked over to take a look at your book -- wow! that cover art is bitchin'. I don't know if it's the hour or what, but you tell Luke he's got a fan.

I think I'm going through some sort of graphic artist envy thing lately.

Romana Grimm said...

@David

Must be an Irish thing, although I do love a good BLT sandwich myself every now and then ... :-)

@Veronica

xinxii is a very good option for European authors, as well as ebozon. I've signed up on both platforms and will upload my first novel as soon as I get it back from my beta-reader. He still has to check the parts about the domina and the police *g*

Sebastian Dark said...

So, I'm sitting on pins and needles here waiting for the Joe's newest post. I'm guessing the 400-odd comments means others are just as anxious ;)

Josie Wade said...

I'm waiting for his new book which I know he's working hard to get finished.

Rob Cornell said...

Here's a question: Does anyone think having an indie print version available help with ebook sales? Perhaps a reader sees the print price and buys the lower priced ebook because they feel like they're getting a bargain. Or having a print edition adds some perceived legitimacy to the novel.

Romana Grimm said...

@Rob: In the US I'd do that if I knew that people would buy them. In other countries (i.e. Germany in my case) it's not so easy. Have a (expensive) print copy with ISBN out and you're forced to sell your ebook at 75% of that price. It's preposterous and very much turning people off of going into print. A shame, really, but at least we'll need less paper in the future *g*

David Gaughran said...

@Romana

Can you tell us a little more about xinxii.com? I checked out the site and it sounds interesting. Is it big in Germany (i.e. do people use it to buy e-books rather than Amazon?)

Romana Grimm said...

@David:

There are people who buy their ebooks via the apple store or with their Kindle, and then there's the folks that want to earn a bit pocket money with self publishing. As far as platforms go, xinxii isn't bigger or smaller than the others that I know of, but all of them aren't very big. I hope that'll change in the future. To be fair, xinxii certainly seems to be the most liberal one. You just have to sign up, load up your stuff, price your stuff and then you can go live. No entrance fee, no gatekeeper who checks your formatting, you can put up whatever your want. I also checked with their rules and couldn't find a non-compete clause. This allows authors to happily publish elsewhere.

All in all, xinxii sounds good to me, and I guess that it couldn't hurt to further your portfolio. :-) If I remember correctly you can even choose English as language - good for terms of use and other important stuff.

Ursula said...

Thanks Joe. Just spit my morning tea all over my lap top as I started reading the blog. Not the first time either.

Anyone ever tell you, you have a way with words? ;-)

Nancy Beck said...

@Ashlynn,

From what I've read on your blog, what you're seeking an agent for is a book of poetry (and lyrics?) and what sounds to me like a local history book.

First, I'll give you my take on the local history book. Have you considered looking at local or regional publishers? I can't specifically point you to any of them, but I'm sure you could do a Google search and find some. I don't think you'd have to worry about getting an agent (so there's no query-go-round); you can send your ms. directly to the publisher.

Next, I'll give you my take on the poetry/lyrics book. From my understanding - and I could be completely wrong about this - poets have been self pubbing their poems for a long time. Besides, legit agents don't rep poetry (unless your name happens to be Maya Angelou ;-)). As another poster said, how big is the poetry section at your local bookstore - if they have one, that is.

As for self pubbing costing a lot of dough - it doesn't have to. You can barter for a decent cover, you can learn how to do a decent cover using GIMP or Paint.net (both free). You can learn how to format by using the formatting series on Guido Henkel's website (just Google his name).

Promotion? Send other poems (I'm sure you have more :-)) to poetry mags; I know they exist. Go to the Absolute Write Water Cooler and do a search on "poetry" and "poems." They'll give you better guidance than I could ever give.

Lastly (again, this is just my opinion), I think I read that you might have one or two fiction mss. available? Why don't you try trad land with that/those? This doesn't have to be an either/or kind of thing. Send your local history ms. to the regional press, the fiction ms. to agents, and self pub your poetry ms.

Don't be discouraged. Keep writing!

I hope I've been of some (limited) help. Good luck to you! :-)

Anonymous said...

@Nancy Thanks for your advice. You have been very helpful.

Eloheim and Veronica said...

@ Romana

Thanks for the information:
"xinxii is a very good option for European authors, as well as ebozon."

XinXii is now available for books in English and they even pay out in USD via PayPal.

From the FAQ: "Does an American author have to give a tax identification number?

At XinXii.com, an American author is not asked to give a tax ID number, just name and address."

This bit is important:
"Is Germany's VAT being deducted from an author's revenue?

As XinXii is an European based company, we have to warrant two aspects:

- we have to pay the German VAT to the tax office for each eBook sold (19%)
- the VAT must be always included in the final price of all products listed on XinXii.com

So after a sale, we have to transfer the VAT to the tax office, and the author will get 70% of the net price as provision/royalty"


Ebozon.com seems to be only in German. Is that your experience?

Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

Things I have learned about self-publishing (so far)

Eloheim and Veronica said...

I started following XinXii on Twitter after I loaded my book. I just checked my twitter feed. They tweeted about my book!

Sure, it looks like they tweet everyone's books. But who cares??? It felt cool to see it on my feed!!!

I re-tweeted it just now.

That's a fun way to start the day!

Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

Andrew said...

Since this is _the_ place to talk about things like this :) Did you hear Amazon is going to open their kindle books to lending via the library. Awesome news! amazon ebook lending libraries

Romana Grimm said...

@Veronica: Yeah, it looks like ebozon.com is only for German texts. They also charge a fee for every title you publish there. It's only 10€, money I'm sure most people are willing to pay, but if they don't list English fiction there isn't much sense in wasting your time there.

As to xinxii: I don't know how the American tax office deals with it but since the double tax agreement works both ways there must be a way for you to get money back (is it true that your VAT is only 7-9%, depending on where you live? If so I'm seriously envious ;-)).
It might pay off if you contact xinxii and see if they can (and will) help you with your tax issues. I sure am happy that smashwords is so user-friendly and has a step-by-step guide for regaining "excess" US taxes. :-)

Eloheim and Veronica said...

@Romana

We have sales tax. The amount varies widely from place to place. Mine is 9% (which I believe is on the high side), but in some places it's zero.

I don't know anything about the double tax situation you are referring to. Can you give a quick summary?

I like that they are upfront with the VAT and include it in the purchase price so my price stays the same across all venues.

Amazon ADDS it on (or something gets added on) as my $3.99 book shows up as $5.99 for international customers.

$2 is way more than 19%.....

Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

Romana Grimm said...

@Veronica:

I'm no expert but the double tax agreement basically deals with not having to pay taxes twice - if you apply, that is. As far as I know it is not an automatic process so writers who want to operate internationally would do well to look into it. For America, for example, I'd have to register with the IRS and fill out a couple of forms AND I'd need a letter from, let's say smashwords for convenience's sake to state that I'm from Germany and earning money on their site. It's quite an ordeal, really, but one that pays off one way or the other. For me it would mean that I'd never pay more than those 19% and I guess that many Americans, if not all, would get money back.

As I said, I'm not an expert by a long shot, but I hope my measly knowledge helps ^^

Ellen O'Connell said...

"Here's a question: Does anyone think having an indie print version available help with ebook sales?"

My belief (cozy mystery and historical romance) is no, having a print version doesn't help ebook sales. For my first romance, I didn't have a print version for months and never intended to. I didn't believe there would be enough customers for a trade paperback at the price they have to be for an unknown author of a western historical romance of all things.

As it turned out, the romance sold very well as an ebook and I kept getting requests for it in paperback. Figuring what the heck, as long as it earns what it costs, if it will make new fans and keep some people happy, I'll do it, I got the paperback out 3 months after the ebook appeared and for my second romance I put out a paperback right away.

They sell better than I expected and have certainly earned back their costs, but for me (the romances sell from 500-1,000 ecopies a month each and my paperback sales run about 2% of ebook sales), putting out a paperback is a convenience for some readers. I don't think it makes a difference for ebook sales. From reviews and emails I do think people who pay for the paperbacks are more critical if they don't like the book and more passionate if they do like the book.

Andrew said...

Re paper vs just ebook: You never know what format will catch the eye of a potential reader who is your "tipping point" - the one who recommends you to all their friends who in turn do the same, etc. If you are on the cusp of getting onto some list (say Amazon top 100, etc) it can make a huge difference. Plus, that paperback book is a persistent "advertisement" of your work that can be shared, etc. One thought may be to print up a bunch of copies and donate them to your local libraries as a way to get more readers seeing your work.

Robert Bidinotto said...

Joe & all: I don't think the Big 6 will like this article one bit.

Not only because it is more publicity for the self-pub option, but because it reveals just how worried they are about this trend.

David Gaughran said...

@Veronica & @Romana

VAT in Europe works a little different to sales tax in the U.S. In a lot of states, the sales tax is not added on to the displayed price, but in Europe it must be.

The fact is, you don't even see the tax when you view in the U.S., but your European customers will see it, looking at the exact same page. To confuse things further, Amazon is not applying this tax evenly (even though it is obliged to by law). About half the e-books I view have no tax, the rest have tax, it seems to be random.

However, this $2 you are seeing is something different altogether. Amazon charges a surcharge of $2 on EVERY SINGLE DOWNLOAD through your Kindle if you are outside the U.S.

I believe that this charge does not apply if you do it through your computer, that it is a Whispernet surcharge, when you order books directly through your Kindle.

For all these reasons, and more, Apple is starting to kick Amazon's ass in Europe, and I think Kobo, who have a real plan in Europe, are going to surprise everyone.

Dave

David Gaughran said...

@Robert

I only get the first para of that article because I am not a subscriber.

Can you post here, or summarise the main bits?

Romana Grimm said...

@David:

That's the reason why I'm only buying at smashwords right now. It's the retailer where authors get the best royalty rate (85% if I'm not mistaken) AND I can choose between several editions. What more could I want? The page might not look good compared to amazon or B&N but it sure is servicable. And that's what counts in the long run. :-)

P.S.: Sorry if my English is wonky; it's late here. I really should go to bed *yawn*

Kendall Swan said...

@Robert - you beat me to it.

Here is a link that should work for 7 days for the whole article. My apologies if it doesn't.

Kendall Swan
NAKED Adventures-26 Erotic Short Stories

Kendall Swan said...

SIKE!

Here it is for real this time.

David Gaughran said...

@Kendall - thanks for think link

I love that quote at the start - the publishing exec saying Amazon are "training people away" from trade-published authors. Next they will ask for a separate bestseller list. Oh wait, the New York Times already did that.

Oh and John Locke, 369k downloads in March? Wowzers.

Kendall Swan said...

I love that quote at the start - the publishing exec saying Amazon are "training people away" from trade-published authors. Next they will ask for a separate bestseller list. Oh wait, the New York Times already did that.
DOH!

Yeah, I had no idea John Locke's growth was that dramatic. That's how Amanda's went, too, right?

I don't know if all the anti-99c writers are going to like the article, tho.

Kendall Swan said...

And I'm sure we can be expecting to see an Amazon press release soon announcing his entrance into the million ebook club along with Larsson, Roberts, and Patterson.

But he'll be the first indie!

David Gaughran said...

Off the top of my head? I think that's at least as good as any month Amanda posted. I know she was hitting 300k, but I think he might have her on monthly total here, but would need to check.

David Gaughran said...

Hocking is in the million club already, as far as I know. But the interesting thing about John Locke, aside from the fact that he had made a grand total of $47 (not a typo) by last September, is the month-to-month growth. It's astonishing, and faster than Amanda. This would have to be the peak though, wouldn't it? Could it go higher?

Kendall Swan said...

I think it can go higher. He's got a great character and they are fast paced books. Much like Amanda's. I just realized I use her first name like we're, ya know, buds or something. Haha.

Is Amanda there already? For just Amazon? I wasn't aware. I know she's gotta be around a million by now but I thought it was for all retailers. Idk.

David Gaughran said...

As far as I know (again I have to check), most of Amanda's (she's like Pele or Madonna, she doesn't need a surname anymore) sales have been through the Kindle. I heard someone saying a month or so ago that she hasn't even broken out yet in some channels, so she certainly hasn't peaked outside of Kindle anyway.

If she hasn't sold a million on Kindle, she is bloody close.

Robert Bidinotto said...

The numbers for Locke are unreal. HOWEVER...that doesn't mean he's maximizing his income, or that others should follow his lead.

It makes sense to price at 99 cents if you are a newbie with no following, and need to make a name for yourself.

But it makes no sense to price that low if you do have a following already.

Consider: David Baldacci this afternoon was positioned at #5, right behind Locke who was at #4. Baldacci managed to sell the massive quantities of ebooks necessary to get to #5 even though his book is priced at a whopping $14.99. Locke is just one position ahead, at 99 cents.

So, who is making the most money? Baldacci, in a walk. At that price, he's likely clearing $2.23 per book, while Locke makes only $0.35 per book. Locke would have to sell more than 6 times more books at that price to equal Baldacci's income from those two books.

But there's something else very important that this tells us. THOUSANDS OF FANS WILL BUY HIGH-PRICED EBOOKS -- IF THEY KNOW AND TRUST THE AUTHOR.

Baldacci's sales tell me that people still will pay plenty for a good story. They are not just shelling out 99 cents for any old book; they want a GOOD book. And for an author with a proven track record, they'll pay 15 times that amount.

All these price debates about indie books are overlooking that simple fact. IF you have established a good "brand" (reputation for good storytelling), you don't have to price yourself in the bargain basement. Pricing at the bottom only makes sense if you're still trying to acquire visibility and a readership. Once you have, you can raise your prices, and your readers will follow you.

Look at indie author Michael Sullivan, for example. He's selling very well at $4.99 - $6.99. Why? Because he has established a loyal readership for his series work.

So, if you've established a reputation and a solid base of fans, there's no reason to cut your prices to the bone. And if you're selling well at $2.99, I bet you could up the price to $3.99 without any significant fall-off in sales, but with a hefty increase in income.

Eloheim and Veronica said...

My 80 year old neighbor just called to ask if I would help her order a Kindle tomorrow. :)

Dee said...

"Look at indie author Michael Sullivan, for example. He's selling very well at $4.99 - $6.99. Why? Because he has established a loyal readership for his series work."

Because he writes epic fantasy, his natural readership is vastly smaller than John Locke's. If he tried to price at $0.99, he might pick up a few new readers but he'd lose a boatload of money. And a fan at $4.99 is worth a lot more than a fan at $0.99. The first will read the book and most likely the next.

David Gaughran said...

You're right Robert. I've said this before and I'll say it again. There have always been regular publishers and discount publishers, just like there has always been dollar theaters and day-old bread.

And while that bread is probably fine, and John Locke is a hell of a writer for 99 cent, there will always be a market above that, if you pitch it right.

The one reason (aside from the writing) that Michael Sullivan is doing so well at $4.95 is that his books are indistinguishable from anything coming from New York. If you can pull THAT off, $4.95 looks like a sale, and people looooove sales.

Merrill Heath said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Merrill Heath said...

Robert Bidinotto said: So, who is making the most money? Baldacci, in a walk. At that price, he's likely clearing $2.23 per book, while Locke makes only $0.35 per book. Locke would have to sell more than 6 times more books at that price to equal Baldacci's income from those two books.

But if Baldacci was self-pubbing at that price (with a 70% royalty) he'd be making much more money than he is currently with his ebooks. At $14.99 he'd be making $10.50 on every book instead of $2.23.

I think at this point Locke could up his price to $4.95 and still sell a ton of books.

Then there are guys like me who are trying to get a toe-hold. As a result, I'm dropping the price on my first Alec Stover mystery to 99 cents. Book 2 will be out soon.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness

David Gaughran said...

Two quick things - the upper limit for the 70% royalty rate is $9.99, so Baldacci's publishers (and him) are losing out on money in their attempt to shore up print sales.

Second - Locke has stated a number of times that he has no interest in charging more than 99 cent for his books, ever.

Robert Bidinotto said...

Merrill, I agree with you. Locke could up his price to $2.99 - $4.99 and make a lot more money. And Baldacci, going indie, could chop the price of his book to $3.99 and make $2.79 per sale -- more than his current $2.23 -- but sell far more books, too.

My conclusion? Successful trad authors could earn much more money by going indie and cutting ebook prices to under $10, while already-proven indie authors could probably up their prices a couple of bucks and make far more money, too. In fact, I won't be surprised if, down the road, the best authors from each camp all converged on some pricing "sweet spot" of around $4.99 - $6.99.

Robert Bidinotto said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Robert Bidinotto said...

David, you're right. Oops. I forgot about the cut of royalties back to 35% above $9.99.

So if I have this right, Baldacci & publisher would make 35% of $14.99, or 5.25; his share would be 25% of that, or $1.31, of which 15% (20 cents) would go to his agent, leaving him about $1.11 per sale. That's still more than triple Locke's 35 cents per sale.

Douglas Dorow said...

One of the things I love about this blog is the topics, questions and challenges Joe throws out.

The other is all of the great followers, their comments and the sharing that goes beyond where we started.

@Robert Bidinotto I hope you keep participating in the debate, I appreciate your insight. I'll need to check out your blog and your novel coming out "Hunter".

Keep it coming guys. Love it.

David Gaughran said...

The crazy thing is that if his publisher priced the book at $9.99, then the publiser would get $5.25 and Baldacci would get $1.48 per sale (after agent cut)

Robert Bidinotto said...

@ Douglas: Hey, thanks much.

When I said Baldacci is making triple Locke's amount per sale, I didn't mean to say he has the better deal long-term. Far from it.

Once he has saturated his existing fan base, how many new people, unfamiliar with his work, will be tempted to plunk down $14.99 in the future? His book will soon vanish from the Kindle bestseller list.

By contrast, how many new readers is Locke going to attract at 99 cents, and for how long? At that price, his sales can go on forever, because it's an easy impulse purchase for browsing readers looking for a new book.

Bottom line: Locke's ebook can make him a bundle forever at 99 cents. Baldacci's ebook is priced to shrivel in sales and income for him.

Dee said...

"how many new readers is Locke going to attract at 99 cents, and for how long? At that price, his sales can go on forever, because it's an easy impulse purchase for browsing readers looking for a new book."

John Locke is in a unique position mostly because of his real-estate I think. He's got six books on the first two pages of the kindle bestseller list. That's self-sustaining. He got there by being early and cheap, and he's staying there because he IS there. He has so much real estate, and he's such a cheap impulse buy, why the hell not buy it?!

But what happens when there's an influx of thousands of new cheap books? Gradually his books could be replaced by others on the list, and once he loses that prime real estate, his income will plummet to less superhuman levels.

Robert Bidinotto said...

Incidentally, here is an updated link to that Wall St. Journal article, whose tagline is, "99-Cent Titles From Unknown Authors Put New Pressure on Big Publishers." The previous link seems to have been deactivated; let's see how long this one lasts.

This article canNOT have made the Big 6 happy.

Unknown said...

All this talk of who's making how much after how long and what price is making me want to peddle faster.

Meanwhile I sit by patiently waiting...er mostly patiently ... for word to keep spreading and my own exponential growth to begin....and doing whatever it takes to get there.

www.basilsands.com

nwrann said...

@Dee wrote "John Locke is in a unique position mostly because of his real-estate I think."

I think John Locke's success has far less to do with his position on the bestseller lists and more to do with the fact that references to him in blogs and articles have increased by one or two thousand times in the past month (granted those references are due to the fact that he is on the bestsellers list). I think far more people find his work from these references, or Amazon recommendations, or word of mouth, than people trolling the moment-in-time best sellers list.

I think the same holds true for discount pricing and Joe's experiment. The List didn't make it into the top 100 because it was 99¢, it made it there because he has a HUGE audience with this blog (one that continually retweets and reblogs what he does) and wrote about The List experiment numerous times. ALSO, it was around the same time that his name references increased a thousand fold in blogs and articles about self pubbing. The List didn't drop out of the top 100 because he changed the price to 2.99 it dropped out because he stopped talking about it. It's at 174 right now, if he blogged that he was donating $500 if it makes it to the top 100, I bet it would be there within a day.

Granted, when people see Joe's name in an article and then search for his books on Amazon, if they're a first-time buyer, they're going to gravitate to The List if the sample and description fits their taste.

Basically it isn't any one thing. Just being on the top sellers lists isn't going to get you a gazillion sales and just lowering your price to 99¢ isn't going to get you sales. Do those factors help? Probably. But to get stratospheric sales there also has to be a lot of talk about you or your books. That's how people find what to read. By talking, reading and listening.

BTW, if you want to get in the top 100 all you have to do is seed your sales. Figure out how to buy 2,000 copies of your own book (It'll cost you about $500 less if it's at 99¢ rather than 2.99 with what you get back in royalties) and you'll skyrocket up the charts. But will you stay there simply because you got there? Will you make enough sales to cover the cost of seeding? (it wouldn't surprise me if some of the top 100 denizens have already done this)

David Gaughran said...

wow. I wonder what the share of the e-book market would be if everyone did THAT.

:)

Josie Wade said...

@nwrann

I realize it is early here and maybe I'm missing something -- where are you getting your math?

2000- $500?

I don't think anyone is seeding their sales. Maybe I'm naive.

I do think word of mouth is important, but it has to come from many different sources not just Joe's blog. There are millions of potential readers out there and I think having someone's book come up on the best sellers list helps and also when it shows up on lists like 'customers who brought this also brought' lists. Then after awhile success takes on it's own momentum.

nwrann said...

After reading that article I have to say that I highly doubt that "The Big 6" are worried about .99 books taking away market share.

The question that "The Big 6" will ask themselves is: "Will someone buy John Locke's book at .99 INSTEAD OF James Patterson's for $9.99?"

I think the answer is "no". Locke's is priced so cheap they'll probably buy both.

Discount books have been around since the beginning of time. A $4.99 harlequin never took market share away from a $25 Nora Roberts hardcover.

In fact, I think "The Big 6" might be happy about that article. It's in a mainstream publication which means that people that don't normally read or buy books a lot are reading it and now discovering that they can buy novels for .99. So they'll go out buy a kindle, check out some .99 books and ultimately move into the "Big 6" books. Self-pubbed authors are not going to "take down" traditional publishing.

In a continuation of my previous post about boosting sales via traditional press it wouldn't suprise me if that article was generated based off of a press release from either Locke or Amazon.

Merrill Heath said...

I think Locke has a devoted following now. As long as he continues to produce new books he'll continue to stay on the Kindle best seller lists. And as long as he keeps his novels priced at 99 cents he'll have numerous books on the list because he'll continue to attract new readers at that price.

Will he take readers away from Baldacci or Patterson or the other bit name authors? No. As stated previously, at that price point people can buy both.

But the key is to keep producing new books. That's no different with ebooks or print books, self-publishing or publishing through a traditional publisher.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness
Now only 99 cents!

Merrill Heath said...

Big name authors...not bit...

Sorry. Another typo by another self-published author. ;-)

nwrann said...

@josie wrote: I think having someone's book come up on the best sellers list helps

Well it doesn't hurt. But I don't think getting on "the list" is a viable business strategy. If anyone thinks it is, they should try to seed their book sales to see if it can sustain once they get on "the list". Personnaly, I believe that without other supporting factors (traditional press, blog coverage, forum discussions, social media, advertising) the seeded book would drop like a stone off of the list.

"many different sources not just Joe's blog

Of course. But Joe's blog, if you look at all of the connecting links at the bottom of this post alone, gets reblogged all over the place. the readers of this blog talk about it everywhere: Twitter, Facebook, Forums, other blogs. And I can't read anything regarding writing, publishing, or kindle without seeing his name. That is hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of free press and word of mouth. If he raised prices to $4.99 and started talking about how that's the "sweet-spot" and how much more money he's making now, I think that it would be highly unlikely that his sales would drop. My point is that his sales are not spectacular simply because he prices at .99-2.99 but because he gets SO much coverage. Without all that coverage his sales would probably still be good, they were good last year before all the hype, but they wouldn't be as amazing as they are today. (and I'm not taking anything away from Joe, he works hard to keep his name out there).


Here's my math:

2000 ebooks at 2.99 = $5980
The author gets 70% back = $4186
Total spent (not recovered) = $1794

2000 ebooks at .99 = $1980
The author gets 35% back = $693
Total spent (not recovered) = $1287

$1794 - $1287 = $507 less to seed an ebook at .99 than at $2.99

Josie Wade said...

@nwrann

Thanks -- 2cups of coffee later it makes sense.

One more question why 2000?

I'm not being smartassed when asking this -- I didn't know if there was a previous discussion about how many books you need to sell in order to be on the list that I missed.
Or more likely I'm missing the obvious.

nwrann said...

@Josie

I think 6 months ago 1,000 would have put a book in the top ten, but now it would probably take 2,000 to break into the top 100.

I would guess 2,000 (all purchased at once or within a couple hours) based on Locke's guest blog here. In the comments he stated that when he was at #1 on the overall Kindle list he was selling 4,000 or so per day. I'm just guessing but there's probably a bit of latitude between #1 and #100.

Other than that, it's just a guess.

But, if an author believes that simply getting into the top 100 is going to make their sales go hogwild then how much would they be willing to pay to get there.

If a shady, trench coat & fedora wearing guy stopped you in a dark alley and said: "Pay me $6,000 and I'll put your book at #50 on the kindle top 100" would you do it?


btw, seeding sales is nothing new. There are warehouses full of rotting Glenn Beck books that the publisher bought up so that he was a bestseller. How else can that be explained?

Anonymous said...

btw, seeding sales is nothing new.

It's the oldest trick in the book.

Every conservative PAC has thousands of copies of Palin's book in their basement. They'll be giving them away to donors for the next five years.

Never confuse "bestseller" with "good literature."

Dee said...

From wiki:

"In 1995, the authors of a book called The Discipline of Market Leaders colluded to manipulate their book onto the best seller charts. The authors allegedly purchased over 10,000 copies of their own book in small and strategically placed orders at bookstores whose sales are reported to Bookscan ... The book climbed to #8 on the list where it sat for 15 weeks, also peaking at #1 on the BusinessWeek best seller list. Since such lists hold the power of cumulative advantage chart success often begets more chart success."

Josie Wade said...

A thought on marketing.

John Locke doesn't promote John Locke he promotes his character Donovan Creed. If you google John Locke not much special turns up about him, but google Donovan Creed and it's like Christmas. (Joe does this somewhat with Jack, but he competes with the whiskey brand name too).

Also on his blog it is all about Donovan Creed not so much about Locke.

I find him interesting as a case study so to speak for a couple of reasons unlike Amanda and Joe he didn't enter the market with a large backlist, but grew it organically over time as he marketed. Plus his price point remains constant. Plus he's in a very sought after genre.

I hope John doesn't think I'm being callous here. His books are a good fun read too with good editing and sharp covers and nice videos for each book that really grab you.

Plus and I think this in important he's a nice guy who really likes his fans and enjoys this aspect of his life. Win-win.

Josie Wade said...

@nwrann
The numbers make sense. Thanks.
**
btw, seeding sales is nothing new. There are warehouses full of rotting Glenn Beck books that the publisher bought up so that he was a bestseller. How else can that be explained?
***

Kind of depressing.

David Gaughran said...

This has long been going on in the music business too, especially in Ireland and England where the markets are that much smaller.

In books, some weeks in Ireland you only need to sell about 400 hardbacks to hit the official top 10.

Robert Bidinotto said...

I think Josie is getting back to what I was saying before.

In a cluttered marketplace, you need to find a way to stand out from the crowd. To be distinctive. All of these tactical discussions about price alone are beside the point, if you do not build a distinctive "brand" -- meaning, a reputation -- that causes you to stand out from the crowd. Read the classic marketing books by Al Ries and Jack Trout on "Positioning" if you want sound advice in that regard.

When everyone is selling at 99 cents, you will not stand out from the crowd. Period. You have to do something else.

John Locke understood this. He is on top of the bestseller lists for good reasons -- and 99 cents isn't the only one, by a long shot.

Like most of us, he didn't have a big name or huge backlist when he started. But he has said that he carefully studied his target audience and wrote books that met their expectations and desires. He didn't scrimp on good storytelling. Knowing that his kind of readers wanted a strong, ongoing series hero, he gave them a new, distinctive one.

He also said that he studied where his audience hung out, and he made himself visible there. To build a professional, "quality" brand for himself, he didn't scrimp on his covers. He made sure his books were decently edited. He made sure his promo copy AND his books were spell-and-grammar checked

In short, Locke approached this job like a seasoned pro, and he "positioned" himself in the marketplace so that his target audience (a big one) would easily find him, like his books, and be willing to come back for more.

Question: How many indie authors take the time to think through such considerations, let alone address them?

To build a distinctive brand, you first and foremost have to put out a first-rate product that meets or exceeds your audience's expectations. At 99 cents, people might sample you once. But if it is a lousy read, you've just "branded" yourself negatively, as a writer to avoid in the future. Amazon reader reviews can not only help you; they can be the kiss of death for your career.

My takeaway from Locke's success is that if I wish to succeed as an indie writer, I'd better jolly well be prepared to do the kind of things he did.

Anonymous said...

My takeaway from Locke's success is that he's a master marketer and salesman. I believe that's his background.

His books? Meh. I tried to read Saving Rachel. I couldn't get past the first chapter. Note the book has almost as many 1 star reviews as 5 stars. There's a reason. My guess is he'll never be able to sell anything successfully at more than 99 cents a pop.

I salute Mr. Locke for his genius at marketing. His writing? Not so much . . .

Unknown said...

Palin? Beck? I thought we were talking about indie self-publishing, not making spurious political statements about folks who were traditionally published.

If only I had a platform like them, I'd be a bazillionaire from my books too!

Which brings us to a question, what platform do each of us here have that makes people want to buy our books. Is is a solid character in a series, kick-ass action scenes, incredibly intellectual thoughts, make you cry in your decaf-latte poetry?

What about your work has the potential to propel your book to the top of the charts and keep it there?

Merrill Heath said...

Basil asked: What about your work has the potential to propel your book to the top of the charts and keep it there?

I'm much too modest to answer that question...

but if I wasn't...

then I'd have to say superbly written dialog, interesting plots, and engaging characters. ;-)

Merrill Heath
Alec Stover Mysteries

Kendall Swan said...

I'm much too modest to answer that question...

but if I wasn't...

LOL!

Doesn't it vary by genre? And by person?

I mean, anon didn't like Locke's books but there are some rabid fans who would disagree.

One thing I think both Locke and Amanda have in common is the that page turner quality where you want to read the next book immediately. But how they achieve that differs bc of genre difference. I'm sure there is some crossover in their fans (myself) but probably not a lot.

Kendall Swan
NAKED Adventures - 26 Erotic Short Stories that will turn you on

Kendall Swan said...

Let's get the comments to 1000--only one sentence per comment. :P

Carson Wilder said...

What about your work has the potential to propel your book to the top of the charts and keep it there?

It will scare the crap out of you.

Unborn

Josie Wade said...

Kendall Swan said
Let's get the comments to 1000--only one sentence per comment. :P
***
LOL
Not that Joe doesn't like a achieving those impossible numbers!

Actually I keep hoping to find FLEE in my inbox. I have some time in about two weeks where I'll be able to read just for fun and not so much for work and I have plans:

JLBryan's Tommy Nightmare
Blake Crouch's Run
and hopefully Flee
And I'm sure there will be a bunch others that will creep on my ereader between now and then.

James A. Owen said...

This is something I used to tell newcomers to the comics market, in the days before I became a novelist, which, watching writers like Locke, I believe to be even more true today:


There are in excess of seven billion people on the planet. If the means are there to make your work available for them to find (and buy), and you put in the effort to spread the word about that work, then you ought to be able to connect with enough people who like precisely what it is that you do for you to earn a pretty comfortable living.

Unknown said...

@Carson:

So your pull is to give readers horror based diarhrea?? ;P

Cool! Physical symptoms of reading...and if they stop reading....out come the jalapenos!

push...push...AAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!...

---

Strong action and fight scenes are a grabber in mine, deep characters are another. But while my readership is pretty loyal, it is not yet growing exponentially (one of my favourite words). For marketing one point that grabs a consistently growing readership, I want to figure out a single point of attraction, perhaps a character, but without doing a true series. I don't want to be locked in to a single story line for too long

While my books are all stand-alones they have interweaving characters that connect either in the present or back story. There is one who appears throughout, not a main character though. Kharzai Ghiassi, Persian American CIA agent with a penchant for killing with a smile on his face (think a cross between the old Howie Mandel from his standup comedian days that looks like Moss from the IT guy with a beard and works like the Boondox Saints but more efficiently). He's in three of my four novels and readers love the guy, even though he's kind of a nut job. I've already got spots for him in the next two novels in the queue that have nothing at all to do with the previous books.

I'm considering giving him his own Second Life presence and see what happens there.

I recently posted a short story about his first touchdown in the action/spy world here on my blog.

What do you think? Could Kharzai the Fuzzy Persian be the linch pin of astronomical success?


Basil
www.basilsands.com

Karen Woodward said...

James A. Owen wrote:

"There are in excess of seven billion people on the planet. If the means are there to make your work available for them to find (and buy), and you put in the effort to spread the word about that work, then you ought to be able to connect with enough people who like precisely what it is that you do for you to earn a pretty comfortable living."

I'm going to print that out and put it above my writing desk! Thanks for sharing.

Merrill Heath said...

Ditto. That's a nice perspective. Very encouraging.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness

Anonymous said...

Thanks, Joe! A friend pointed me towards your blog last year. I've never liked waiting, and have always preferred to do things my way. The main reason I'm doing this is for the creative control. I also wrote my own jacket copy and commissioned an illustrator to design the cover. It's nice to have final say in something I've worked so hard on. Fuck all the stigmas. I put out Miss World yesterday (4/20), and have already sold 8 copies.

http://tinyurl.com/3b7g7jb

Susie Rosso Wolf said...

Oh! I"m so happy I found you! Thanks for the validation of what I sensed was right but wasn't sure. Please stop by my true story blog to comment, give advice on my Ebook on Amazon (how to increase sales) and to follow if you can.

Smart stuff here. I will come back again and again. Thanks much!

newprairiewoman.blogspot.com

Errol said...

A masterful post Mr Konrath. Enough said.

Jack D. Albrecht Jr. said...

We seem to have come just short of 500 comments. I have been a bit worried with the long delay in another blog entry, until i read comments Joe made. Now I see why, he is up against a deadline of sorts. All that can mean is that we will have another great book to buy soon!!!

So while I was waiting for another blog by the king of all blogs. I decided that now would be a good time to update my own blog..... It needed an update for sure!

http://osricswand.blogspot.com/

Unknown said...

Perhaps we should start a song.

All original lyrics

to the soundtrack in our own collective heads.

Unknown said...

OK.....

I'm doing a bongo riff to start it off...


budi-buda-pop-pop-poppa-di-di-tridle di pop-pa-doobadiboo....

thonk.... (that was the conga)

fill in as you see fit

Kate Madison, YA author said...

Okay, I might need methadone soon. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Flee will be great and all. And this blog is free. But I need a fix, man.

@jack
I did the same thing:
http://bit.ly/hJNZCZ --there's an excerpt!

Kate Madison

Author of the upcoming ebook:
EMPTY - An Apocalyptic Romance for Young Adults (With Zombies)

Rob Cornell said...

Are we at 500 yet?

Anyone noticed the new Kindle DE outlet for ebooks now? We can sell to Germany now. Woot!

Rob Cornell
Author of Last Call (a Ridley Brone Novel)
Your ONLY source for hard-boiled karaoke noir.

Anne Marie Novark said...

Excellent post, Joe.

I took notes.

I've been asked to do a workshop on self publishing for my RWA chapter. Most of the members are still pursuing traditional contracts. I will not be preaching to the choir. Should be interesting.

Dee said...

498.

Kendall Swan said...

The post page says 502 but the comments page says 497. Hmmmm.

@AnneMarie
So, yeah, last year our program director invited me to speak at my Rwa mtg. I was all excited. I had plan for publishing the presentation as an ebook just for them and also a few Pod copies on hand as well.

But program directors can't be left to their own devices and so when the board heard about this, they immediately shot it down. No big deal. That was 2010.

Cut to last week. I posted The link to Robin's cool income chart on our yahoo loop. Immediately, 2 ladies post about the negatives of self publishing. One of them all but said that only those who aren't good enough for NY are the ones who self publish.

I gave it a day so I could calm down then addressed their points one by one in a logical and sometimes even deferential fashion. I took the high road--but it was hard!!

So, be careful. And maybe address the stereotypes first to get those out of the way from the outset.

Good luck!!

Kendall

David said...

Mine says 500!

Anne Marie Novark said...

Thanks for the heads up, Kendall.

I have a pretty good idea what I'm up against. I asked the program director if she thought anyone would actually attend that meeting. *grin*

Jude Hardin said...

So your pull is to give readers horror based diarrhea?? ;P

LOL. Just wait till you read the boiling enema scene.

Yes, Carson Wilder is the pen name I'm using for horror. So you heard it here first, folks.

JUDE HAS GONE INDIE!

Unborn

Josie Wade said...

@Kendall Swan

I was curious did you ever hear back from Amazon why they don't like Naked Cheerleaders?

What do they have against Cheerleaders?

Josie Wade said...

Way to go Jude!

Eloheim and Veronica said...

Just finished an interview about my book and my work on a BlogTalk Radio show. I don't recall any conversation here about Internet radio programs, but I have found them to be a good way to spread the word. There are a LOT of them!

Plus, you can then embed the interview on your blog which gives you a shiny new post as well!


Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

Kendall Swan said...

@Josie
Yeah, that would be a no with a side of no. They did respond back. But the sentence was: "I can't give you any more insight into this matter. The title is blocked."

Problem was, I had already submitted Naked adventures which included cheerleader when I got the first blocked email. Naturally, they blocked Adventures as well. Both are up in all their glory on Smash and pubit (still waiting on premium approval from smash). And cheerleader does really well on Apple which I heard is supposed to be pretty picky with ebooks.

I have on my todo list to reupload with my first stage of changes to cheerleader and see if they take it. Then keep watering it down till I get a yes.

Honestly, my erotica is pretty vanilla. Explicit but vanilla. A guy and girl have sex. Occasionally, there is another girl. I never thought my stuff was controversial enough to warrant a trip through the black hole that is the vague content guidelines (there is truly no guidance in those guidelines).

Okay, long post. Sorry about that.

The answer to your question is no. They never told me what was wrong with naked cheerleader. May it RIP.

Thanks for listening!

Kendall Swan
NAKED Adventures- 26 Erotic Short Stories that will turn you on

PS- Yay Jude!

Kendall Swan said...

@Josie
Thanks for asking, tho. :)

Josie Wade said...

@Kendall Swan

Sorry. I've heard other complaints around the web about the lack of boundaries. Seems everyone would play in the gated area if only Amazon were clear on what that area is. Plus I've come across way more controversial stuff then nudity and sex. If that were an issue half the books out there would have to be edited.

I'm writing a paranormal YA and I'm a little confused on how explicit I can get -- not that I'd go crazy with teens, but is underaged sex applicable when you have a very old vampire with a young, but eternal creature? It can drive you nuts.

Douglas Dorow said...

Way to go Jude, er Carson. You know who you are. Good luck!

Kendall Swan said...

@Josie
Ahh the problems writers face.

I think your okay if they aren't human as far as age goes. Probably consent is the main issue (non-humans have rights, too!).

But yeah, the fences are the invisible kind and we are like the dogs who must stray past it and get stung before we know where they are.

Happy Writing!

Kendall

Jack D. Albrecht Jr. said...

Joe withdrawals are worse than heroine withdrawals! Not that I would know anything about that......

Donald Wells said...

Joe!
Joe, are you there buddy?
Hey everybody, the cat's away--Let's play!

Melissa F. Miller said...

@Kendall,

I am talking out of my butt here (neat trick, huh?), but when I hear "cheerleaders" I think first of tweens or very young teens. Do you think perhaps someone *assumed* the stories would appeal to pedophiles?

Just a guess.

I, too, am eagerly awaiting FLEE (having read RUN in one sitting---should have paced myself!).

My legal thriller went live on Kindle and Amazon two days ago. I keep opening the file for my WIP, but instead of writing, I find myself obsessively checking my sales rank. LOL.

And, to get out ahead of this issue--it is priced at $4.99. There are several reasons for that.

We looked at the legal thrillers and most of them are at that price point or above.

I asked lots of readers, ranging from little old ladies at the library to soccer moms and college students what their impulse purchase price was for an ebook and five bucks was the nearly universal response.

I have been burned, personally, by too many spelling- and grammar-challenged 99-cent books to feel comfortable wading into that sea. (I know there is good stuff at that price point, but there's a lot of dreck.)

And, finally, we lined up an eBook of the Day sponsorship for mid-May on KND. The idea is to drop the price for a limited time to coincide with the ad. Pricing at 99 cents leaves one nowhere to go but up.

We'll see if this strategy pays off.

And, baby has crawled over to dog's dish. I guess it's time for breakfast! Gotta run. Will be back to see if 1000 comments is an attainable goal.

David Gaughran said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
David Gaughran said...

Hi all,

After the great discussion we had earlier on John Locke, 99-cent e-books, and the race to the bottom, I wrote a blog post on the subject.

Will 99-Cent E-Books Destroy The World As We Know It?.

Dave

Melissa F. Miller said...

@David,
Liked your cogent blog piec on the 99 cent kerfuffle. I tweeted a link to it, but couldn't find your twitter handle--if you are on twitter, that is.

T.K. Murphy said...

So, I finally got my first novella- American Nightmare by T.K. Murphy- published a few days go. So far no sales! It is a horror thriller about a man losing everything and slowly unravelling.

Now I have never used Facebook/twitter or blogged at all. I guess that would be a first step-to set up these accounts and to drive traffic. I have only priced it at 99 cents, but so far no takers. Any other authors that started from nowhere self publishing have any good ideas?

The good thing is I got it published-so now can focus on the rest!

Merrill Heath said...

@T.K.

I like your cover and I downloaded the sample. At my day job I'm a PM in IT, so I can definitely relate to what happens at the beginning of the book. But you need to make more available in the sample. There isn't enough there to really hook the reader. We know from the description that Bob get's laid off. There needs to be more to make the reader want to buy the book.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness
Now discounted to 99 cents!

Anonymous said...

T.K.: Is there a reason you don't identify it as a novella anywhere on the product page? I fear, even at 99C that someone might be annoyed that they thought they were getting a novel and instead got something far shorter.

Kendall Swan said...

@Melissa
Tho the cheerleader is a senior in highschool, it is mentioned that she is already 18. I had asked amazon if expanding on that, adding a couple of paragraphs about being an adult in high school or something, would bring it within the guidelines. That was when I got the 'no more insight' comment.

My fear is your reaction to the title--that the title itself is the problem bc it might connote someone younger. But the title was the main selling point (it used to be my 2nd biggest seller--n. parent teacher conference has always been the #1-usually 3-4 a day). I'll report my reuploading success and failures and we'll find out.

@TK- just bought. I see you used Telemachus (like John Locke). Did you like working with them?

@Merrill
I didn't think there was any control over sample length with amazon? Has this changed? I purposely put most of my non-story book matter in the back bc of the sampling issue.

Anonymous said...

Merrill: You list your novella at 41,000 words and state that as equivalent to 100 pages. First of all, at 41,000 words you can call it a short novel. Or just a novel. And using the 250 words/page rule, your novel is really around 160 pages.

Kendall Swan said...

@Merrill- just bought, also.

Kendall Swan said...

1 more thing:
The new amazon.de (still no sales)- I was going to put my stuff up on xinxii after hearing about how easy it was but isn't that a german company? Now that there's an amazon store, can they possibly compete? i.e.- is it worth the effort to load all my titles on xinxii?

Thoughts?

Kendall Swan
NAKED Adventures for NOOK

David Gaughran said...

I posted this question on a few different forums.

They seem to be very savvy with social media, and the CEO seems smart, but sales are low, so far, very low.

Then again, if it is no hassle to upload, what's the harm. I believe they take virtually any file format, and you should have those already.

Nancy Beck said...

@Kendall,

This lady already has something up on Xin Xii.

There isn't enough info in the blog post to make a definitive decision, but maybe she'll answer if you leave a comment. :-)

David Gaughran said...

I know one writer listed on Xinxii.com who has been up there for two months with no sales (but he does have sales for Germany through Amazon). Another German author said he had a handful of sales, not much, but said their customer service is excellent, and that they are active in promoting your book through twitter and facebook, at now extra cost.

He said authors and publishers in Germany know the company, but the public don't (yet).

Anonymous said...

Prehaps Legacy Publishing is failing, because the business no longer was about publishing books, but rejecting books? The business is not about developing new authors with readerships, but keeping readers captive to the same authors, styles, and story lines? Maybe legacy publishing is failing becasue, it deserves to fail. It earned it. Poor contracts, long lead times to market, high percentage of rejections, and poor royalties on e-books.

Self publishing electronic E-Books are like cars, vs. legacy publishing is a buggy whip. But the buggy whip salesmen continue to tell us all, these cars are just a fad and will never last. What we really need is a good old fashion horse and carriage.

How in the world are they not going to fail if they continue to offer nothing but horse and carriages?

Brandon Wood said...

Just wanted to say that you're an inspiration! I decided to start e-publishing my writing and I've made a whopping one sale so far! haha But I'm thrilled by that. One person stumbled upon one of my short stories and liked it so much that they bought it. That's a great feeling. I don't have to be rich; I love writing and if what I do for fun is entertaining enough to others that it takes off, then great, if not, also great because I'm still getting to write. :) There's really no reason not to e-publish and every reason to try!

Josie Wade said...

I have a question --how long do you think your short stories have to be to sell?

I have a few stories, but they aren't very long about 2,000 words. I've thought about putting them together in one book, but there isn't a unifying theme.

Any advice?

David Gaughran said...

Hi Josie,

I'm putting some shorts up on Kindle for sale - should have the first ones up in a week or two.

I plan to sell them individually for 99 cent, and bundle them into 5-packs for $2.99 and 10-packs for $4.99.

The first release will be a two-pack because they are only 2,000 words each, and I don't think selling that short, on their own, will fly.

The next one after that is 6,000 words, and I will still keep that at 99 cent.

I don't expect to make money, I only hope to cover my costs - then all the education costs me is time.

Then when I release my novel over the summer, I will know what I'm doing, and have a bigger footprint when I launch.

Dave

TK Murphy said...

@ Merrill : I will see what I can do about getting a bigger sample
@Anonymous. I guess I should have mentioned it as a novella. I can edit it. Thanks.

@Kendall. Thanks ! Yes I used Telemachus. It was a bit upfront and I really am new to all this-formatting, cover etc and they even uploaded for me too. At some point, I guess I will have to learn, just as I am now learning about the marketing side of self published books. But I was very happy with their service-they were prompt , responded very nicely and I am happy.

I have never used facebook/twitter or blogged before, so just picking up all this.This does entail quite a bit of work !

Merrill Heath said...

@Anon: thanks for the feedback. I based the page count on the actual length in PDF format. I'd hate to say it's 160 pages only to have someone print it out and worry they were missing a bunch somewhere. The 250 words/page is about right for a manuscript but the words/page in print format (single-spaced, smaller font) is more.

The designation of novella, short novel, novel, etc., is an interesting delima. I've seen novels listed as 40,000+ words in some refereneces and 50,000+ in others. I figured I'd call it a novella just to be safe.

@Kendall: thanks for the purchase. Hope you like it.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness
Now only to 99 cents!

Josie Wade said...

@David
Thanks. That was my idea too -- to gain some footing and to get more comfortable formatting with something shorter (especially since I write these stories anyway), but I didn't want anyone to feel cheated.

I like the idea of bundling I forgot that was an option. Hmm.

I like your new picture too.


By the way, Joe, if you are following this at all I just wanted to say thanks for letting us play in your sandbox while your away!

David said...

@Merrill:
Sweet Ginger Poison is 39,000 words and ranked #152. But it doesn't call itself a novella. You may be better off stating the word count than using the word "novella." It's not a poisoned word, but novellas don't sell as well as novels, so calling it a novella when you don't have to means you're leaving money on the table.

Alastair Mayer said...

@Joe:
I dunno if it's an easy tweak (I use Wordpress, not Blogger) but I -- and probably others -- would love if the timestamp on comments also included the date. This is especially so on these long threads that go on for a week. Makes it easier to pick up where I left off. Cheers.

Merrill Heath said...

@David
I think you're right. I may update the description and just leave the word count.

@Kendall
I think you can specify a % to make available for the sample on Kindle but not on the Nook. I have about 40% of the book available in the Kindle sample.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness
Reduced to only 99 cents!

Anonymous said...

Joe must be busy. He's forcing me to post on his favorite topics, and dang, this writing thing is real work.

Risk Adversity and Legacy Publishing

Anna

Alastair Mayer said...

@Josie,

One of my stand-alone shorts on Amazon ("Light Conversation") is only 1000 words. It's sold one copy at 99c (in about three weeks). So there's a data point for you.

If Amazon had let me, I might have set the price at 0.49. But this was an experiment. The story is pro-level, it appeared in Analog SF magazine last year - and if I sell another 170 copies on Amazon I'll match what they paid me for it ;-). Could take a while at this rate, though.

I have several other stories at that length. When the rights revert I'll bundle them into a collection rather than go to the trouble of putting them up individually.

In general short stories don't seem to sell as well as novels (even short novels). My strategy is to submit them to magazines first then put them up as ebooks when the exlusivity period expires. Aside from the cash, you reach a lot of readers, (Analog, for example, has a circulation of 28,000 or so) which gets your name out there.

Of course, if I already had the name recognition, it might be more cost-effective for me to just skip that step. And it's going to vary by genre, too.

David Gaughran said...

This is what I love about self-publishing short stories - it's a fourth way to sell the same story (and fifth if you bundle it and sell it individually).

If you set it up right and have a production line you could sell stories to magazines, then sell reprints, then to an anthology, then publish it online.

Alastair Mayer said...

@David,

Exactly! It's what Dean Wesley Smith calls "the Magic Bakery" -- you can keep selling slices of the same pie indefinitely.

Anonymous said...

Shorts are a tough game though. If your genre has a large number of magazines, it can take months before you hear back from them, few pay pro rates, and the acceptance rate is often less than 1% for the good magazines. Plus you have to wait out the exclusivity period after its published, which could be many months away ... ugh. Not to mention that most magazines have policies prohibiting multiple submissions and simultaneous submissions.

David Gaughran said...

Yeah, I love that analogy.

Pie too.

Robert Bruce Thompson said...

@ Merrill

I think you have your book categorized exactly right. The break point between a novella and a novel varies from genre to genre, but even for genres that typically have smaller word counts it would be stretching things to call 41,000 words a novel. Also, I suspect most people here are using the word count from their word processors, which is not how word counts have been done historically. The word count from a word processor can be as much as 25% higher than the phrase has been used by publishers.

The Wikipedia articles on novellas and novels have a pretty good summary, but basically for other than YA fiction and some other "shortish" genres, I think it's a mistake to call a book a novel if it's less than 70,000 to 75,000 words. Perhaps 10K less than that for a classic mystery, and 15K less for classic SF, but for thrillers and other mainstream stuff I'd say a word processor word count of 75K to 80K is a minimum for a shortish novel.

Incidentally, you were right about translating word count to page count. Your book is about 100 pages in print, which no one would call a full novel. Modern novels, say for the last 30 years or so, have typically been in the 300 to 400 page range, call it 120K to 160K words.

Incidentally, you should get an author bio and photo posted for your author page at Amazon.

nwrann said...

Shorts are a tough game though

It's all a tough game. ;-)

Shorts are particularly frustrating, especially with the simultaneous submission requirement.

Recently, I waited 4 months for a response from Apex. I contacted them 3 times. They finally rejected it. If they didn't have an SS requirement I could have submitted to plenty of other markets during that time.

Merrill Heath said...

@Robert
This is what I've always gone by as the "industry standard" although I know that changes from time to time...

Classification & typical word count:
Novel = 50,000+ words (200+ pgs)
Novella = 20,000 to 50,000 words (80 - 200 pgs)
Novelette = 7,500 to 20,000 words (30 - 80 pgs)
Short story = 1,000 to 7,500 words (4 - 30 pgs)
Flash fiction = under 1,000 words (>4 pgs)
*Page counts are based on manuscript formatting of approximately 250 words/page

And you're right about the Author page on Amazon. I need to get that updated.

Thanks for the feedback.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness

Unknown said...

# shorts

Shorts are a hard sell from my experience. Best way to do them seems to be anthologies. As my own shorts have not done particularly well, in spite of rave reviews in podcast format, I am busily converting the rest of my shorts from audio scripts into regular text manuscripts to build an anthology of a dozen or so of them and hopefully see the sales rise on it.

Rebecca Stroud said...

@Josie - For what it's worth, I have one short story for sale that is only about 1600 words (priced at $.99). Though it is slow going, I still get sales most every day. Also, I have a "three short story" work ($.99) which has no more than 5000 words combined. It sells the same as the first one I mentioned....just my grain of salt.

Rebecca Stroud
A Three-Dog Night
Zellwood: A Dog Story

Robin Sullivan said...

@Kendall Swan said...
Cut to last week. I posted The link to Robin's cool income chart on our yahoo loop. Immediately, 2 ladies post about the negatives of self publishing. One of them all but said that only those who aren't good enough for NY are the ones who self publish.


Glad the income chart was of help. I think it is amazing the type of money I see self-published authors making nowadays. They are totally outperforming many of the traditional authors.

Robin Sullivan | Write2Publish | Ridan Publishing

Anonymous said...

@RBT: "Modern novels, say for the last 30 years or so, have typically been in the 300 to 400 page range, call it 120K to 160K words."

160,000 words is more than twice the length of a typical mystery. For her to meet your particular definition of a novel would put her at odds with readers of her genre. The word length for a novel has always been fluid.

There have been many award winners in the 40,000 word range and many in the 200,000 word range.

Publishers like large word counts because they can charge more for the hardcovers, but when it comes to e-books, numbers don't lie. People are buying shorter works.

Robin Sullivan said...

Recent moves on the Amazon Top 100 David Baldacci's latest book, No Time Left, is in the top 100 #84 and has been for 4 days. This is the second Hachette Book Group offering at $0.99 I've seen. Their other book: Iain M. Banks, Consider Phlebas was in Top 100 for only a day or so and is currently in the 700's

Also J.R. Rain's third self-published book is doing well at $3.99. Been on Amazon Top 100 for 19 days (Book #1 has been on for 111 days at $0.99)

Robin Sullivan | Write2Publish | Ridan Publishing

David said...

Robert, you site the Wikipedia article on novellas and novels, but if you looked up "Word Count" on Wikipedia, you'd see this:

"... the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America uses word counts to determine which pieces of fiction are eligible for which of their Nebula award categories--

Classification Word count
Novel over 40,000 words
Novella 17,500 to 40,000 words
Novelette 7,500 to 17,500 words
Short story under 7,500 words"

David said...

It might also be interesting to note that the MWA has no novella category for the Edgar awards. Anything under 22,000 words is a short story, and anything over is to be considered a novel.

The Horror Writers of America categorizes a novel as any work over 40,000 words for the purposes of awarding the Bram Stoker award. I don't believe it even has a novella category.

Josie Wade said...

Alastair Mayer said:
One of my stand-alone shorts on Amazon ("Light Conversation") is only 1000 words. It's sold one copy at 99c (in about three weeks). So there's a data point for you.

If Amazon had let me, I might have set the price at 0.49. But this was an experiment. The story is pro-level, it appeared in Analog SF magazine last year - and if I sell another 170 copies on Amazon I'll match what they paid me for it ;-). Could take a while at this rate, though.

***

Wow this place got busy while I was gone.

Thanks for sharing that Alastair. Two of the stories I was thinking about sending out, but some of them I know would have a difficult time finding a home because I have a tendency to write across genres.

It's good to see the natives didn't come at you with pitchforks and torches for your 1,000 word story. I agree I would probably offer mine at .49 cents too, but such is life.

I like the pie analogy.

@Rebecca Stroud
Actually, your perspective was worth a lot. I'm glad you piped in. At least I know I'm not crazy for thinking about publishing them.

Alastair and Rebecca I'll pop over and look at your stories.

Thanks.

Rebecca Stroud said...

Thanks, Josie...glad I could help a little. Also, hope you like the stories (if you love dogs, I imagine you just might..:-)

Unknown said...

Speaking of shorts, I remember a story about a different kind of shorts that used to make me both laugh and cringe.

Years ago I was the manager of the military dining hall for the National Security Agency. Yup I was Chef to the Spies, meal provider to International Men of Mystery and Black Ops types. There was a supervisor in the dining hall who was a retired Army Mess Sergeant and he was absolutely anal about dress code.

Granted it was a military dining hall and there were rules, and this was in the early 90's before "sexual harrassment training" became standard, but this dude had a thing about girls wearing short shorts. In the event a young lady came in wearing shorts that extended less than three inches from her private area he would send her back to the barracks to change before she was allowed to eat. If she argued that it was within regs ol' sarge, apparently having visually stared at enough women's private area to trust his visual measurements, whipped out a plastic ruler he kept in his pocket for just such an opportunity. The girls almost universally balked at the idea of him verifying anything and stormed out of the mess hall to find something to cover up...or head off base to McDonalds.

After a while, some of the older female employees kept a couple of wrap around skirts available to loan the young girls before sarge saw them.

Of course if guys came in wearing short shorts he didn't bother with the ruler, they just got a snot slinging nuclear shout fest explosion only a mess sergeant was capable of. And they never argued with him...nor did they repeat the mistake. Something about him saying "If those things fall out yer shorts I'll castrate you with a fifty pound potato peeler" or "this ain't that kind of freakin' joint sweetie cakes, if I so much as think yer hairy butt-cheeks are going to peek into view I'm gonna shave them off with this industrial cheese grater!"

Yeah...sarge ended up with a lot of counseling during the Clinton years....

anyway...shorts are difficult issue for me

Kendall Swan said...

@Josie
I have 21 short stories published under different names, mainly erotica (tho I am working on my first YA novella now). They have been doing very well for me. Erotica in particular is very welcoming for short forms.

I see the popularity of shorts rising with ereaders but short novels are where it's at.

As far as classification, until I started writing seriously 2 years ago, I had no idea what a novella was. As a heavy reader, I knew short story and novel. And I didn't really care beyond that.

I see word count being the equalizer since most often people don't agree on the category definitions. And also bc a reader can't look at the size of the book to judge it's length.

@RBT from a reader point of view, wouldn't word count from a word processor be the only one that would matter?

@Robin
I love your work! You are so generous with your analysis over here. It is much appreciated.

Kendall
NAKED Adventures- 26 Erotic Short Stories

Josie Wade said...

Kendall Swan said:
As far as classification, until I started writing seriously 2 years ago, I had no idea what a novella was. As a heavy reader, I knew short story and novel. And I didn't really care beyond that.

I see word count being the equalizer since most often people don't agree on the category definitions. And also bc a reader can't look at the size of the book to judge it's length.
***

Yeah, as a reader I don't think I was as aware of the word count boundaries and I wonder how many readers out there can articulate beyond the point that it just seemed too short. (I know I couldn't have many years ago).

I know with YA you have to be more savvy -- the younger generation is very aware of things that a lot of older generation readers pass on (I'm speaking generally -- there are exceptions I'm sure). But even so I've seen that most of them just want a good story. I think reader anger comes not from having lost their .99, but from not getting the fulfillment of an unspoken promise between reader and author -- that you won't let them down. The story had a point and it wasn't a con of sorts.

Donald Wells said...

I just put this on sale today. I think it's only been up for about three hours.
Kindle version to follow.

Dropping My Shorts

David Gaughran said...

I think the key here is clear labelling.

I just saw some threads on Kindle Boards with readers complaining about downloading something, thinking its a novel, only to find out its a short.

Readers don't seem to know what word counts relate to, so giving them an approximate page count (I personally will use the 250 words per page formula) is probably best.

Ellen O'Connell said...

I put out my first short story on the 13th (6,000 words, 22 pages) and as of last evening it had sold 25 copies at $.99 on Amazon. It's also available on my website in pdf and prc for free and at Smashwords (where it's had 145 downloads) for free. Admittedly, because it's based on characters from one of my western historical romances that has a lot of fans, it had a starter audience.

IMO you'd have to have a lot of these suckers out for the sales to affect bottom line, but I plan to do at least a couple more in hopes they may inspire some customers and keep fans enthused between full length works.

Selena Kitt said...

I think Joe needs his own forum! ;)

Jude, I'm so psyched about "Unborn!" I'm in the middle of Crouch's Desert Places - but that one has to be next on my list. Final Destination meets The Exorcist - cool! And the vengeful ghost of an aborted baby girl? Dude, you are just asking for controversy=sales... :D

Eloheim and Veronica said...

@ Selena

I emailed the forum idea to Joe a few days back. There is so much good stuff in the comments of his posts. Unfortunately, it gets a bit lost in this format. It certainly is hard to find!

Veronica
The Choice for Consciousness: Tools for Conscious Living, Vol. 1

nwrann said...

I just saw some threads on Kindle Boards with readers complaining about downloading something, thinking its a novel, only to find out its a short.

My wife recently bought a book for 1.99 or 2.99 (i can't remember). Everything about it made it seem like it was novel length. When she got to page 30 or so the book ended. Kind of. It kind of was like a short story but was supposedly part of a series. What it really was was the first few chapters of something. The problem was, there was no indication. The description made it sound like it was the first book in a series. That's what bothered her. She would have paid for it and been fine, had she known it was short.

Personally I think anything over 35,000 is a novel.

Linsey Lanier said...

Joe, you crack me up. Thanks for the kick in the seat of the pants. Now I've got to stop reading this addictive blog with all of its addictive comments and get busy and finish my next novella before too many of those minutes pass by!

http://tinyurl.com/3m7g3e9
http://tinyurl. com/PFHTblog

David said...

When I read "Old Man and the Sea" or "Of Mice and Men" back in school, I don't remember anyone telling me they were novellas. They were just the books we had to read. we shouldn't get too caught up in nomenclature.

Ty said...

I'm not even sure labeling a short story as a short story is always enough.

My 99 cent fantasy short story "Flame and Blade" has the words "short story" right at the top of the cover image. The description also includes the words, "This short story of 11,000 words ..." AND I include a note to readers right at the beginning of the e-book, this note informing readers this is a short story, not a novel. That note I included mainly for those who sample before purchasing.

And I still get e-mails, and one one-star review, saying things like, "I was ripped off. This was only a short story."

Ah, well. What ya gonna do?

Merrill Heath said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Merrill Heath said...

Most readers don't know a novella from a novellette from a short novel. They also don't have any idea what word count relates to. Tell them the number of (print) pages and they have a basis for what they're getting.

Still...if it's well-written and entertains them most people won't complain about paying $.99 or $2.99 or even $4.95 if it's more than a short story.

OTOH, give them rubbish, no matter the cost, and they'll be upset.

Merrill Heath
Bearing False Witness
Now on sale for only 99 cents!

Merrill Heath said...

@Ty
Not to imply that your short story is rubbish by any means...

Merrill

arbraun said...

No, I'm not dense, and nothing's the matter with me, but you've mentioned that to succeed with self-pubbing, you've got to do it right, and your cover artist charges $350. Plus, I've got to pay the guy who makes Word doc into an eBook and the person who does the layout on the paper books for the book signings. I'm on a very low income, and I'd be paying those three people (over the space of three months, one of them a month) my grocery money.

I'd love to try it, and I know I will someday, but you also started in traditional publishing. And I found your blog because agent blogs were mentioning you when you first signed with Amazon, not because it was easy to find. Plus, I'm not in it for the money.

I can be a lazy researcher, I'll give you that.

Jude Hardin said...

Thanks, Selena! Blake was kind enough to read it and give me a great blurb. If you like EXTREME horror, I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Unborn

Jude Hardin said...

BTW, Joe does have a forum. It was quite active a couple of years ago.

http://www.jakonrath.com/phpBB3/

Robin Sullivan said...

Robert Bidinotto said...
Merrill, I agree with you. Locke could up his price to $2.99 - $4.99 and make a lot more money. And Baldacci, going indie, could chop the price of his book to $3.99 and make $2.79 per sale -- more than his current $2.23


Baldacci - has a $0.99 title - it's in preorder right now and #60 on the Amazon Top 100.

Robin Sullivan | Write2Publish | Ridan Publishing

Josie Wade said...

@arbraun

I saw on your website you have 10-11manuscripts?
That is a lot of stories just sitting there. Plus you've had your stories published in magazines (this was a little vague you might want to list them even if they don't give you a contributing copy).

So you're not convinced about the indie pub. market. You think you can't afford to do this. Let's say at the very least you need to hire an editor, the rest you could figure out yourself -- you're smart. Why don't you set aside $20 a week while you query for the next three months that's $240
Edit one and then put it up. Make enough money edit another, repeat -- but to be honest if you could put out 4 or more of your best stories you'd stand better chance of making money -- that is how Amanda did it.

Gotta go. Just think about it. It seems like your spending a lot of time waiting for this to happen when it could be happening.

Ty said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Ty said...

@Merrill, no offense taken. ;-)

Kendall Swan said...

Baldacci - has a $0.99 title - it's in preorder right now and #60 on the Amazon Top 100.

So, it's starting, then.

David Gaughran said...

I wouldn't worry too much, they simply have too many overheads to price everything that low.

I think what we are seeing is a few "experiments" being run, nothing more.

Robert Bidinotto said...

Baldacci's 99-cent title, "No Time Left," is a short story.

Not exactly the same as pricing a book at 99 cents.

Anonymous said...

@nwrann,

This is from like two days ago! :)-but, you said something about an author needing to sale "2,000" copies to make it into the top 100 amazon. Is that sales per day? Or is that total? And to make it to the number one slot, you said one needs to sale 4,000-is that total, or per day?

Thanks!
lacycameywrites.com

Robert Bruce Thompson said...

lacycameywrites.com said...

@nwrann,

This is from like two days ago! :)-but, you said something about an author needing to sale "2,000" copies to make it into the top 100 amazon. Is that sales per day? Or is that total? And to make it to the number one slot, you said one needs to sale 4,000-is that total, or per day?


Amazon supposedly uses a rolling weighted average to determine ranks. I don't think anyone outside Amazon knows the exact algorithm they use, but the weighting may be something like:

45% - hourly sales
25% - daily sales
15% - weekly sales
10% - monthly sales
5% - total sales to date

It's impossible for anyone to say how many units have to sell to get a book into the top 100 or top 10 because that number is going to vary from day to day and hour to hour.

Anonymous said...

@robert bruce thompson-

thanks so much! Great information to know :)

-lcw

nwrann said...

@laceycameywrites.com,

It was just a guess. An assumption. I don't know if it's 2,000, 4,000 or more? but I'm guessing 2,000 is half a day will get you there. based on the fact that when Locke was #1 he was selling between 4 and 5 thousand per day.

The point of it was that if an author believes (as I think so many do, judging by the obsessions with rankings) that getting into the top 100 creates a self-fulfilling best seller, that the act of being in the top 100 will, by itself, deliver truckloads of money, then wouldn't or shouldn't that author do whatever necessary to get there? Wouldn't shelling out 1,000 2,000 or 10,000 dollars be worth it? It costs a lot less to seed a book into the top 100 of amazon kindle rankings than it does to seed a book into the NYT.

How much would you pay the devil to put your book at #50?

nwrann said...

Oh, and btw, I personally don't think that it's a very good business plan and I don't put that much stock in the Amazon Kindle rankings being a tastemaker. Does it hurt to be #99? No. If you've made it there you've got a good thing going already.

(it may or may not be a good analogy but one of my films was #6 in Amazon's video on demand Indie horror ranking and I don't think I ever got a sale from being ranked ahead of The Blair Witch Project or Let The Right One In.)

Kannan said...

Joe, Thank you for being such an inspiration! You are really a trend-setter. You have left no loop-holes in this argument is self-publishing is indeed the best option for new authors. If the books are great, well edited and loved by the readers, they will sell well.

I am getting ready to self-publish my book soon. It is so liberating to be able to have the final say on everything from editing to the cover material. I am so glad that none of the agents or publishers were even interested in looking at my manuscript. Indeed, I would have needed a lot of luck to succeed that way. I am sure the book is going to do much better through self-publishing. Even if only a few people get to read it, I would be satisfied that the book is out there. Thanks again for sharing your insights and encouragement!

Wishing you continued success!
best wishes,
Kannan

JA Konrath said...

585 comments? This is what happens when I don't blog for a few days? :)

I've been working on FLEE with Ann Voss Peterson, we're finishing it up right now. It'll be available on April 29th on all ebook platforms, and in early May in print.

Sebastian Dark said...

Yup, 585 comments are pretty impressive, Joe

Jack D. Albrecht Jr. said...

Is there room in here for vain self promotion? If not them please ignore the comments below.

Excerpt from "Osric's Wand". Our work in progress! http://osricswand.blogspot.com/

James A. Owen said...

For some of you just starting out, I wanted to offer a suggestion about reviews. There are a thousand reasons for someone to post a lousy review of your books - and that's okay. It just means your work is reaching an ever-increasing number of people. But you shouldn't sweat the bad reviews, or the people who wrote them. For whatever reason, those connections just didn't work - and that's okay, too.

But hold on tight to the good reviews, because those are the ones where you DID make a connection. Those are YOUR people. They are of your Tribe. And they are the ones who will help create - and sustain - your career, one book at a time.

Just keep doing your work, and don't worry about the people who don't like what you do - because you aren't writing for them, anyway.

wannabuy said...

Joe,

Will you be updating your author sales post? I love the individual author updates, but sometimes it is nice to see the big picture.

Or maybe we should ask Robin for another quest post such as:
http://jakonrath.blogspot.com/2011/01/guest-post-by-robin-sullivan.html

Neil

M. M. Justus said...

It's easy to outsource things like editing if you have a good idea of who's a good editor and who isn't. I don't.

On top of that, there don't seem to be any criteria -- apparently anyone can hang out a shingle as a freelance editor. I have an English degree, and a master's degree, so I'm probably more qualified than most freelance editors are to begin with.

But I want a "real" editor's eyes on my book before I put it out there. Where can I find a vetted list of people who might be able to do this work for me? I'm not looking for individuals at this point, I'm looking for a way to triage the vast numbers of editors out there in the ether into a reasonably sized list.

Help?

Louis Bertrand Shalako said...

While committed to the long game, the first few sales have been a little bit like pulling teeth by hypnosis. Every time I get a sales notification, there's this little shot adrenalin. Am I really doing this? Thanks, Joe.

Saffina Desforges said...

This post and ensuing comments is awesome!

Some great advice and opinions.

We are in exactly this boat at the moment. Sugar & Spice has made it to #1 in three categories and is currently #2 in the UK Kindle Paid store.

We are selling 20,000 copies a month and with another book due out in July and one more before the end of the year, I hope to be writing full time by 2012, BUT, we have a dilemma...

We have possibly just secured an agent and hopefully, with that, might come a deal at some point. So what now? We have some big decisions to make regarding the future of our books and whether we continue to self-pub and retain control or go for the DTP route and take a back seat? We have the first of The Rose Red Crime Series coming out in a few months and then the first of a fantasy trilogy, Equilibrium: First Blood by the end of the year, do we want to be waiting 18 months to two years before we see them hit the shelves and lose potentially a quarter or a million sales for each in that time?? A no-brainer me-thinks ;-)

Unknown said...

Excellent remindings! Nice blog! Thanks for sharing! Yet, I'd like to add another warning: never trust a literary agent who wants to charge you for the editing of your manuscript! Even if your manuscript needs editing, that's not the job for the literary agent, they have to find a publisher and receive a percentage from the sold books afterwards, not to cheat a writer and take your money...
Besides, I'd like to make a suggestion too: using sites like zazzle.com, cafepress.com, fiverr? They could be a good way to promote your works/blog, etc and to help "remove" stupidity in the streets like headlines on t-shirts, fridge-magnets, cups, etc: My Boyfriend kisses Better Than Yours, FBI - female body inspector, etc. Not everything we see and think of should be about sex, right? It would be much better if there were more nice pictures (even of mythical creatures), good thoughts, poems (from any genre are welcome I guess), etc? I'm allanbard there, I use some of my illustrations, thoughts, poems from my books (like: One can fight money only with money, Even in the hottest fire there's a bit of water, or Let's watch the moon, let's meet the sun!
Let's hear soon the way the Deed was done!
Let's listen to the music the shiny crystals played,
let's welcome crowds of creatures good and great...
etc). Best wishes to all writers and decent publishers and literary agents! Let the wonderful noise of the sea always sounds in your ears! (a greeting of the water dragons' hunters - my Tale Of The Rock Pieces).

Morgan Mandel said...

I figured this out when I self-pubbed in August, 2009, yet many of my fellow author friends still are overjoyed when they receive contract offers. They're younger than I am. They can afford to wait, and wait, and wait. I don't have that kind of time.!

Morgan Mandel
http://morganmandel.blogspot.com

Amy said...

I'm so glad First Book is doing well by Trapped also, Joe. Keep up the promotion of that too. While I too love my Kindle and am excited by the e-book trends, I see lots of the teens and younger children in the library who can't afford the e-readers or even a few print books. First Book is bridging the divide. Keep fueling tomorrow's writers with books!

Matt Bone said...

This post cause me to start looking at the publishing world in a whole new way. Thanks, Joe.

Angela Verdenius said...

After having 18 novels and 2 novellas published by a samll publisher, I'm dipping my toes into self-publishing, and have just brought out my first full length novel myself. I have a great sense of achievement! It'll be interesting to find out how it goes, but I know I need to work at it as well. Meanwhile, I bought a kindle, and I'm now a convert for ebook reading! I love it. With the economy going the way it is, and less money to spend, I truly believe most readers will convert to ebooks, and the cheaper prices.

Unknown said...

This post just confirmed what I had been thinking about the publishing industry for a few years now - only you articulated the reason better than I could have ever identified them for myself.

Publishing the traditional route would never work for what I'm pursuing, which is releasing a story post-by-post online on a blog as a "literary soap opera". I just wonder if my method is even viable! How would you even go about promoting a fictional blog? That's what I need to get around...

C. Ann Walton
Author of "Leighton Heights"
http://www.leightonheights.com

AmiraAly said...

First I gotta say that Joe is the main reason behind me self-pubbing my debut novel.

I am an international author (from Egypt) and let me tell you that when I tell people that my novel is digital--well, the spark in their eyes goes off.
"Oh, yeah... one of THESE then? So when's the REAL book coming out?"

They may be people who don't even like to read, but were trying to be supportive!

When anyone around here asks who published my novel and I answer "me", they automatically assume that it was not good enough to be read in the first place.

I was not affected by anything they say--but the reality of how difficult marketing is is really bumming me out.

I released my book a week ago, but I'm starting to panick. I can hardly get any book bloggers to accept my book (although it has a kick ass premise if you ask me :D

The money I spent on the cover, editing, formatting etc... is a small fortune when you translate it to Egyptian pounds. The "beaking point" may be a bit high for me-- will definitely lower the budget next time.

Anyway, thanks Joe for all the great info and insights you give us all!

Donna McDine said...

Terrific post of both sides of the coin. Thanks!

Regards,
Donna
Award-winning Children’s Author
Write What Inspires You Blog
The Golden Pathway Story book Blog
Donna M. McDine’s Website

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