tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post5317820053084428930..comments2024-03-18T06:16:18.802-05:00Comments on A Newbie's Guide to Publishing: No Dues is Good DuesJA Konrathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comBlogger63125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-85584263544507028502008-09-12T13:32:00.000-05:002008-09-12T13:32:00.000-05:00It's pretty hypocritical for Stacey Cochran to...It's pretty hypocritical for Stacey Cochran to bitch about ITW considering he showed up at ThrillerFest last year and proceeded to hang up posters advertising his latest self-published novel in all the meeting rooms. Can you imagine the balls it takes to do something like that? Someone had to sit down and explain to him why that was wrong. And he ended up asking for referrals to agents!<BR/><BR/>ITW is an organization that exists to promote the thriller genre and to help advance the careers of professionally published authors. If that doesn't sound like your kind of thing, don't join. (I'm not a member because I didn't see the point. I'm not a joiner.)<BR/><BR/>Who cares what some group of people is getting together and doing when it doesn't hurt you or anyone else? Why would anyone be so concerned or upset about it? Who gives a shit? ITW can do whatever the hell they want. It doesn't affect me or anyone else on her complaining.<BR/><BR/>As for all the self-published authors out there who are constantly complaining that they can't join MWA or ITW---why don't you guys get together and form your own organization? Instead of always bitching about the efforts of hardworking volunteers in other groups, do some actual work yourself and start your own group.<BR/><BR/>Do what ITW has done. Start an organization. Get members. Raise money. Earn respect for the genre. Get media coverage. Help sell books. Publish anthologies. Give out awards.<BR/><BR/>Why not? What's stopping you? Jim Hansen & Stacey Cochran -- you can be the co-presidents. Do something for a change---don't just criticize what other people are doing.<BR/><BR/>If you won't do it, why not?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-37171054370273409442008-09-05T16:26:00.000-05:002008-09-05T16:26:00.000-05:00Not a fool, David. Just idealistic.I'm still a lit...Not a fool, David. Just idealistic.<BR/><BR/>I'm still a little idealistic, but in a way where I'm the boss.<BR/><BR/>Once people start telling you what to do--or even worse, when you do something for people and must deal with their complaints--then "abuse" is a good way to descibe it.<BR/><BR/>But giving and helping on your own terms is a much better way to function.<BR/><BR/>That said, if ITW needs me to man a table, they got me.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-65054202392835585372008-09-05T14:41:00.000-05:002008-09-05T14:41:00.000-05:00you've summarized pretty well why I have decided n...you've summarized pretty well why I have decided not to renew my membership in the SFWA. It's a decent enough group, and they're trying hard but honestly? I'm still mystified what I was supposed to get from being a member that I can get only by being a member.<BR/>And that bit about volunteering...oh, yes. A year ago, even some months ago, I felt different, can't believe how cynical I've become in that time but I've done my volunteering and already it's obvious how it's going to go: yes, I think what we're trying to do is a good thing and it could benefit writers. Other writers, not me. My "career" will stall and get nowhere because I'll be too flipping burned out from volunteer work.<BR/><BR/>I'm getting out now before any lasting damage is done.<BR/><BR/>so, yes, a wholly selfish move but there is a point where you need to look after yourself and realize a situation where you'll end up only giving, where others benefit but not you and getting hardly anything back is not a good situation to be in. In real life, it tends to be called an abusive relationship. <BR/>in writers orgs it's just professional abuse.<BR/><BR/>this is me, doing a 180 from the way I felt back in April this year. What a fool I've been.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-60104829057936771262008-09-05T13:37:00.000-05:002008-09-05T13:37:00.000-05:00Hey we got Perry Mason weighing in on the topic. I...Hey we got Perry Mason weighing in on the topic. <BR/><BR/>I'm gonna make some microwave popcorn.Stacey Cochranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14128613653591282474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-63375977910221327142008-09-05T13:03:00.000-05:002008-09-05T13:03:00.000-05:00I'm not a member of ITW. Why? Because I am not p...I'm not a member of ITW. Why? Because I am not published. I accept this, because there are standards for membership.<BR/><BR/>I AM a member of the American Bar Association. Why? Because I meet the membership requirements:<BR/><BR/>1. I graduated from an ABA-accredited law school.<BR/>2. I am licensed to practice law before the highest court in at least one state or jurisdiction (in my case, two jurisdictions).<BR/>3. I paid my dues.<BR/><BR/>You are not a member of the ABA. You didn't meet criteria 1 or 2, and therefore have no need for criterion 3.<BR/><BR/>This makes perfect sense to me. It makes perfect sense to you.<BR/><BR/>Why does this not make sense to so many unpublished writers on your blog? If they don't want to be associate members, they don't have to join. If they want to be active members, they need to meet the membership criteria.<BR/><BR/>Case closed. You've been far too patient in hearing these grievances.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-86612323137129963962008-09-05T10:53:00.000-05:002008-09-05T10:53:00.000-05:00I think self promotion and self congratulations ca...I think self promotion and self congratulations can only hurt you.<BR/><BR/>By the way, have you visited <A HREF="http://www.howtopublishabook.org" REL="nofollow">howtopublishabook.org</A>?<BR/><BR/>It's an awesome site!Stacey Cochranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14128613653591282474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-77828779230039072812008-09-05T09:19:00.000-05:002008-09-05T09:19:00.000-05:00I completely agree. I, too, joined organizations a...I completely agree. I, too, joined organizations and found I got nothing in return. Except to feel left out because I couldn't fork over the grand it took to go to the annual conference. I think, in the past, before the explosion of the internet, these organizations were useful, but now you can connect with other authors free of charge and still get the same results.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-802314347194379762008-09-05T05:30:00.000-05:002008-09-05T05:30:00.000-05:00WOW!That is impressive!I'm currently reviewing whe...WOW!<BR/><BR/>That is impressive!<BR/><BR/>I'm currently reviewing whether or not to join SCBWI. I know you're not a member, but does anyone have an opinion on this organization?JKBhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13176569393506563218noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-76253094683558210582008-09-05T05:02:00.000-05:002008-09-05T05:02:00.000-05:00Hi Joe,You certainly appear to have stirred up a h...Hi Joe,<BR/>You certainly appear to have stirred up a hornet's nest with this one, but I have to agree with you. In my experience as a writer so far, I can say much the same about writing competitions: the ones that are worth entering seem to be those that don't charge a fee, making their money from sponsors, etc. rather than entrants. <BR/>RafeAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-63229954225995897272008-09-04T22:08:00.000-05:002008-09-04T22:08:00.000-05:00Well, it's a lot to think about. If the published ...Well, it's a lot to think about. If the published (Henceforth "published," in my use, in this discussion only, refers to those published by ITW's standards, and is absolutely no judgment as to whether any author not included in above definition is or is not published.) some of the authors are funding the organization through ITW publications, then I can feel more comfortable with those not writing the ITW publications having to pay dues.<BR/><BR/>I can respect that their desire to take the unpublished as associate members comes from a place of wishing to include.<BR/><BR/>I suppose only time will tell, especially as more people learn that all thriller fans can join, and that 15% number becomes a majority rather than a minority.<BR/><BR/>I really want ITW to be a good org. RWA does not make it past this damned "fair" meter in me. Believe me, I would LOVE to continue being a member. LOVE. I love the people in it. But it's policies don't strike me as fair at all, and they cause much strife within.<BR/><BR/>So I have high hopes for ITW. I really would love to see it be a fair organization to all its members, whatever that criteria for membership may be. I'm dying to join a professional writing organization that treats its members equally. More than even all the other benefits, I just like being around other people who understand what it's like to be an author.Spy Scribblerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14299551957327543491noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-15946344022431147772008-09-04T20:48:00.000-05:002008-09-04T20:48:00.000-05:00No debt at all, Jim. I liked the book.No debt at all, Jim. I liked the book.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-34696240578548344632008-09-04T20:15:00.000-05:002008-09-04T20:15:00.000-05:00"I don't see anyone in this thread belittling or d..."I don't see anyone in this thread belittling or devaluing you, other than that anon guy who was blatantly wrong."<BR/><BR/>I think that anon comment actually came from my wife. I'm going to ask her about it later.<BR/><BR/>Also, for the record, none of my comments were directed at you, JA. You've been a great champion of the newbie as well as the self-pubbed since you entered the scene in 2006. <BR/><BR/>Lots of people don't know it, but you even went out of your way to read and blurb my first book before anyone in the world had even heard my name. I'm still in your debt for that.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01234972022475955356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-81289791528412387852008-09-04T20:07:00.000-05:002008-09-04T20:07:00.000-05:00I don't write thrillers, but SFWA has similar stan...I don't write thrillers, but SFWA has similar standards for their membership. Myself, I have no interest in joining for various reasons...but if they want to choose only to offer certain membership levels to certain types of published individuals, that's their choice.<BR/><BR/>Speaking to one of Joe's earlier points, to where he mentioned a self-pubbed author should congregate with successful self-pubbed authors...as an author with a small press using print-on-demand technology, I try to hang out with published authors (who are successfully published by industry standards). I want to learn as much as possible about the business, so I can be an author published by a major house with a hefty six-figure advance on a multi-book contract (hey, I can dream, right? :-P ).<BR/><BR/>I've seen many similar attitudes demonstrated here as on other sites I visit...that organizations (like ITW or SFWA) discriminate against people published by anyone other than major houses (most have the same complaints about bookstores and other places who hold standards to publication). They bash these organizations for their standards, but don't we all want to become an author who meets those defined standards? Isn't that our eventual end-goal?<BR/><BR/>Personally, I think you become like the people you hang around with (I think Joe might have had a blog about that recently?). If you hang around published authors and learn the business, you'll eventually get there. If you hang around with people complaining about how organizations (and bookstores and various other places) are all out to keep POD- and self-published authors out of their ranks, you'll likely continue to stay out of their ranks.<BR/><BR/>Maybe I'm just way off...<BR/><BR/>I agree with spy, though, an organization who collects dues from one section of their membership should collect the same from all. I'm not sure what SFWA does in that regard, since I've never really been interested in membership.T. M. Hunterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04315726033990784930noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-4149891892263973042008-09-04T19:53:00.000-05:002008-09-04T19:53:00.000-05:00I want a big crown, not a little one, and it needs...<B>I want a big crown, not a little one, and it needs to say "Senor Grande."</B><BR/><BR/>Well, that's it... ITW is gonna have raise the dues, folks.<BR/><BR/>JA wants a big crown.<BR/><BR/>(I'd be happy with a paper hat myself. One that says "Senor Peppy")Stacey Cochranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14128613653591282474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-38234217977852180212008-09-04T18:42:00.000-05:002008-09-04T18:42:00.000-05:00I'd also like to point out that several posts up I...I'd also like to point out that several posts up I did call some self-pubbed authors "professionals."JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-89835141300546472012008-09-04T18:26:00.000-05:002008-09-04T18:26:00.000-05:00Also, I'd like to make clearn that I'm not speakin...Also, I'd like to make clearn that I'm not speaking on behalf of ITW in any of my posts here. These are my opinions, and my rationalizations, and I have no say in how or why they chose certain criteria for membership, only that it makes sense to me.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-77286725403108096202008-09-04T18:04:00.000-05:002008-09-04T18:04:00.000-05:00Fair enough, Jim. But I really don't think it's a ...Fair enough, Jim. But I really don't think it's a question of who is professional and who isn't. It's a good bet you know more about publishing than the average published writer, because you see a side of it they never see.<BR/><BR/>I don't see anyone in this thread belittling or devaluing you, other than that anon guy who was blatantly wrong.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps "professional" is a label that lends itself to misinterpretation, in which case this is an issue of semantics rather than ideologies.<BR/><BR/>I've gotten pretty good at being able to judge the quality of someone's writing. My view is entirely subjective, of course, but I would rate your books on par or better than a lot of professionally published books I've read.<BR/><BR/>But I'm not going to weed through 30,000 self-pubbed books to find 300 that are quality, and neither is anyone else at the ITW, so there has to be a line.<BR/><BR/>This particular line makes an assumption. It has no other real choice. The assumption is that the majority of self-pubbed authors aren't as good as the majority of traditionally pubbed authors.<BR/><BR/>This assumption is correct. <BR/><BR/>Of course, there are exceptions, but it's really impossible to allow for exceptions, because then it becomes a question of subjective taste and opinion, when it's much easier to make it a question of crieria (approved publisher paying an advance, etc.)<BR/><BR/>Now, if one looks at this criteria and chooses to call those who meet that criteria "professionals", well, perhaps it isn't the best label, and perhaps it does imply or even implicity state that those who don't meet the criteria are not professionals. <BR/><BR/>It also assumes that those who don't meet the criteria aren't very good.<BR/><BR/>I'm sure there are cases where it is wrong on both points. I know several self-pubbed authors who write good books, learned how to make a business out of it, and manage to do well.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, exceptions can't be made for these people. Is it fair? No. But I don't see any way around it.<BR/><BR/>Does that mean you're any less of a writer, promoter, or businessman than I am? No. Not at all.<BR/><BR/>Which is why you shouldn't be offended if you don't meet someone else's definition of "professional." It's your definition that counts.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-45291335110114523952008-09-04T17:39:00.000-05:002008-09-04T17:39:00.000-05:00JA, here's my analogy.The Green Guys form a group....JA, here's my analogy.<BR/><BR/>The Green Guys form a group. Qualification to get in: Must have green skin.<BR/><BR/>JMH has polka-dotted skin and doesn't qualify. JMH's reaction" No problem, what they do is their business.<BR/><BR/>The Green Guy's then ANNOUNCE, on blogs and otherwise, is that the reason for the qualification is because green skin means the person is a professional and all other skin colors (including polka dots) mean the person is not.<BR/><BR/>JMH reaction: Offended.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01234972022475955356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-64597077771664466942008-09-04T16:57:00.000-05:002008-09-04T16:57:00.000-05:00I think ITW members should get to wear a little cr...<I>I think ITW members should get to wear a little crown on their heads.</I><BR/><BR/>I want a big crown, not a little one, and it needs to say "Senor Grande."<BR/><BR/>Stacey, for heaven's sake, go to Xlibris, buy ten random books, and try to read them cover to cover.<BR/><BR/>And Jim, I don't see the attitude you're alluding to, but even if it exists, why should that offend you? You're doing what you want, your own way, and doing well. Is peer validation that important?<BR/><BR/>If you really cared about what your peers think of you, then why not publish traditionally?<BR/><BR/>If you don't care (and you shouldn't) then what others think doesn't matter in the least. Even if they think you're unprofessional (which nobody here said.)<BR/><BR/>I'm a professional writer. That means I get paid for writing. That's the label I'm using for myself, to describe myself and my fellow ITW members. <BR/><BR/>If someone doesn't think that label applies to you, who cares?<BR/><BR/>For the record, I'm not equating you or Stacey with the horrible self-pubbed books I was forced to read as a judge. <BR/><BR/>But how else can the ITW distinguish who can be an active member, and who can't? What's a fair way that won't open up the floodgates and allow thousands of very bad writers into the organization (and you two are not very bad writers, and I'm not saying you are, for the fith time.)JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-84857426758922030792008-09-04T16:35:00.000-05:002008-09-04T16:35:00.000-05:00"Writing like any other profession demands that ea..."Writing like any other profession demands that each of us crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. ITW is an organization of walkers and runners. If you are still learning to crawl ... "<BR/><BR/>I have no objection to any group of people banning together and setting forth qualifications to join their group. The minute there are qualifiecation set, some people will meet them and some will not. So be it.<BR/><BR/>What I do find offensive, however, is the attitude of ITW members who think that they are professionals and "can run," because they are traditionally published, while anyone else who is not traditionally published is not a professional and cannot "run" with the big dogs. <BR/><BR/>Setting qualifications is OK. Using those qualifications to pronounce that those who meet them are professionals and those who don't are not, is a whole different story.Jimhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01234972022475955356noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-8209685332789290952008-09-04T16:16:00.000-05:002008-09-04T16:16:00.000-05:00I think ITW members should get to wear a little cr...I think ITW members should get to wear a little crown on their heads.<BR/><BR/>Make it free for anyone to join, but just so that the 604 "acceptable" members don't get their feathers ruffled being associated with riff-raff like me, give them a crown they can wear on their heads at group events.<BR/><BR/>A crown would solve all of our problems.<BR/><BR/>I'd paid 95 bucks to see that.Stacey Cochranhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14128613653591282474noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-79846301879862767662008-09-04T16:11:00.000-05:002008-09-04T16:11:00.000-05:00I’m confused. I keep hearing that ITW is segregati...I’m confused. I keep hearing that ITW is segregating it’s membership. The qualifications to join the International Thriller Writers has not changed since day one. The only thing that has changed is that active members no longer have to pay dues. ITW is a professional organization for published authors. If you are not published, you do not qualify to be an active member. But you can still be a part of the organization as an associate.<BR/><BR/>As far as networking, ITW sponsors the Debut Author Program. When an author member acquires their first contract, they can join this program, network with dozens of other debut and veteran authors, and be mentored by the bestselling thriller author Lee Child who heads the program.<BR/><BR/>ITW also sponsors Across Borders, a networking organization that helps domestic members gain knowledge on getting published in foreign markets and international authors learn more about domestic publishing.<BR/><BR/>I was in the board meeting that made the decision to eliminate active member dues. The theory was that we didn’t want to follow in the footsteps of other organizations. It was expressed with the proposal that if we imitate, we are followers, but if we innovate, we are leaders. Many of our fellow writer’s organizations have been around for years—some for decades. ITW was founded in 2005. We don’t want to be like other organizations. That’s why we find ways to fund ourselves without asking our active members to take on the burden.<BR/><BR/>Writing like any other profession demands that each of us crawl before we walk, and walk before we run. ITW is an organization of walkers and runners. If you are still learning to crawl, you can become associated with an open, approachable group of pros that are more than willing to help and nurture.Joe Moorehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00028401465567502250noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-55729563773909624032008-09-04T15:59:00.000-05:002008-09-04T15:59:00.000-05:00But do you really think the people who would limit...<I>But do you really think the people who would limit your opportunities(should) fund yours?</I> <BR/><BR/>That's their choice, but if it were me, and I was a newbie author (which I was not too long ago), I wouldn't see the need to join ITW until I sold that first book, because I don't see the point to it.<BR/><BR/>Have any former associate members become active members? I'd be curious to see if this has happened, and what they found valuable about being an associate.<BR/><BR/>As for RWA, I dunno how it's run, but your scenario sounds like its members are getting the short end of the stick.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-71516236577383781502008-09-04T15:57:00.000-05:002008-09-04T15:57:00.000-05:00Thanks for the link. I didn't even know they exis...Thanks for the link. I didn't even know they existed.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02378547566593756176noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-48802161830683373342008-09-04T15:53:00.000-05:002008-09-04T15:53:00.000-05:00My debate is not with who they exclude, but that t...<I>My debate is not with who they exclude, but that they divide who they've got.</I><BR/><BR/>I understand what you're saying. I'm hearing you.<BR/><BR/>But I don't think ITW divides their members.<BR/><BR/>ITW is set up to promote thrillers and the professional writers who create thrillers. It isn't a writing club where anyone can join. Only professional writers can join.<BR/><BR/>It's not saying, "We want all authors, and then we'll make some of them pay." It's saying, "We want professional writers, but if you aren't a professional writer and want to support the thriller genre, you can be an Associate."<BR/><BR/>So yes, authors who don't meet the criteria can join. So can editors, agents, reviewers, booksellers, librarians, and fans.<BR/><BR/>But the organization wasn't created to help self-pubbed authors, editors, agents, reviewers, booksellers, librarians, or fans. It was created to help traditionally published authors. And I belive the ITW's criteria for membership is a valid way to define these authors.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.com