tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post2394557556041938410..comments2024-03-28T02:00:11.260-05:00Comments on A Newbie's Guide to Publishing: Fisking Lilith Saintcrow and the Hachette/Amazon SituationJA Konrathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-34913008021678726312014-06-09T18:11:18.192-05:002014-06-09T18:11:18.192-05:00After seeing her comments, I'm glad that I rea...After seeing her comments, I'm glad that I read most of her work from library pickups.Cargosquidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15109858929179841075noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-49858650667013236302014-06-08T00:54:28.996-05:002014-06-08T00:54:28.996-05:00Ugh. Read some of Saintcrow's comments. They&#...Ugh. Read some of Saintcrow's comments. They're funny, sad, and kind of maddening.<br /><br />Most of her argument can be dismantled in that she's operating under the assumption that Hachette is NOT a large, billion-dollar, international corporation. Situational stupidity, or just outright hypocrisy?Non-Spinning Regular Tiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670164316396195162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-54044656596502391722014-06-08T00:47:41.167-05:002014-06-08T00:47:41.167-05:00David L. Shutter - Good point on bringing up those...David L. Shutter - Good point on bringing up those reminders. Joe has always kept track of those developments here (I was a lurker here for a while), but David Gaughran's work is great, like you said.<br /><br />Regarding the indie bookstores that the major chains forced out - they're coming back in decent numbers. And that is something that the Big 5 and mouthpieces are either keeping secret or , a la Patterson and Turow, outright lying about.<br /><br />What your post, and Joe's site, should remind everyone is that the establishment (man!) is playing a long game here. They want to go back to the '90s when they had total control. Shoot, they want even more power than they did then.<br /><br />Always good for us to be vigilant. Indies are winning battles, sure, but there's a war on, methinks.Non-Spinning Regular Tiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670164316396195162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-60197073598144959742014-06-06T12:03:41.116-05:002014-06-06T12:03:41.116-05:00Hi Joe - great fisking of an establishment writer ...Hi Joe - great fisking of an establishment writer such as Saintcrow.<br /><br />In RE: to her being a narcissistic elitist - aren't all us writers to a certain degree ;)<br /><br />But I don't know if I fully agree that Saintcrow is just brainwashed or has Stockholm Syndrome - I think she's very representative of the Establishment right now. Now, it could be the old trifecta of "actually ignorant, intentionally ignorant, or evil". James Patterson is the latter (I'm going to write a post on him soon..), so the question is which one is Saintcrow?<br /><br />Personally, I think she's published by Hachette, so now she's part of the chosen (lucky) few who are deemed culturally significant by her betters. I'd say it starts with Stockholm, but she fully buys into the fact the she is now better than any indie because she's been anointed. She's an authoritative personality - and now that she's with the Establishment, she'll do and say whatever she can to make sure the Establishment keeps indies out of the game.<br /><br />Plus - thank you for all the great info and posts, Joe! Great site :)Non-Spinning Regular Tiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01670164316396195162noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-13762858739841993212014-05-30T00:19:19.850-05:002014-05-30T00:19:19.850-05:00My real life experience is that when someone is de...My real life experience is that when someone is defensive to the point of being rude, you can safely assume they are insecure, unsure of their current position, or secretly starting to question status-quo.<br /><br />Much the same online.<br /><br />It says a lot when we see so many trade authors making a ruccus.elmaconoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-61309721148211314642014-05-29T10:17:28.402-05:002014-05-29T10:17:28.402-05:00"She doesn't like people coming on her bl..."She doesn't like people coming on her blog and calling her a "sexist, ignorant, man-hater who doesn't have a clue about how publishing works despite typing up 40+ books" especially since they don't add to the discussion."<br /><br />Interesting story. I had never heard of Saintcrow before this entire Amazon/Hachette fiasco. I didn't agree with her take but I felt for her position.<br /><br />Went to Barnes and Noble yesterday to pick up a couple of Hachette books (I couldn't get through Amazon - I tried to order and went into the 2-3 weeks shipping fiasco). Found myself wandering the aisles and actually picked up one of Ms. Saintcrow's books. Made the connection once I had it in my hand. Had a positive, fuzzy feel about it and considered picking it up. Didn't but put it on the mental list as a "next".<br /><br />Went home, read a couple of reviews. Like what I was seeing.<br /><br />Went to her blog.<br /><br />Saw her use the term "mansplain" while talking down to and threatening a commenter.<br /><br />Saw her twitter link where she and another author indicated the only thing they lacked to be an independent book author was a penis and a lack of typos.<br /><br />I'm not supporting a bigot - female or male.<br /><br />Her book will sit on that shelf until that Barnes and Noble closes if it's up to me.<br /><br />Sympathy almost made her a sale. Bigotry and arrogance lost it.<br /><br />Talk about damaging your brand.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-53600893362885680502014-05-29T03:57:36.443-05:002014-05-29T03:57:36.443-05:00@ Katie
I don't care how she handles her blog...@ Katie<br /><br />I don't care how she handles her blog and the comments on them, but since she has as you said “typed up 40+ books” and despite that her livelihood is threatened because of removal of pre-order button, that yes, I would say that, yes, there is something wrong with this situation. Something just doesn't add. It's either that her knowledge of how publishing works must be low and that she's very bad at business or that there's something wrong with the publishing system which part she is, because with 40+ on her blacklist and with readers claiming that she's a good writer, her livelihood should be secured. Elkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-21525370332150991892014-05-28T22:08:20.487-05:002014-05-28T22:08:20.487-05:00Inviting comments and then allowing disruptive com...Inviting comments and then allowing disruptive comments that take away from the conversation is counter-productive. In regards to Bob Mayer's comment that she disemvoweled, it was because he didn't offer anything other than a blog title and a link.<br /><br />You don't have to agree with her comment policy, but raking her over the coals and then allowing some of the hateful comments I've seen that have nothing to do with the actual argument is exactly WHY she and other bloggers have a comment policy. She doesn't like people coming on her blog and calling her a "sexist, ignorant, man-hater who doesn't have a clue about how publishing works despite typing up 40+ books" especially since they don't add to the discussion.<br /><br />So, you don't like her comment policy, you don't have to comment. And then "fisking" her blog post just because of her policy?<br /><br />I try to keep an open mind when I read your posts, but calling people out for being "wrong" and then attacking something ELSE seems counter-productive as well. There has to be a better way than this.<br /><br />Also, there were plenty of comments on her post that disagreed with her that she did NOT disemvowel.Katienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-243649766288507162014-05-27T10:36:21.450-05:002014-05-27T10:36:21.450-05:00Joe, I just turned off the tube after watching Rox...Joe, I just turned off the tube after watching Roxana Robinson on MSNBC voicing her thoughts on the current battle between Hachette and Amazon. Her comments made it clear she is clueless about the concerns of real writers toiling out here in the hinterlands. Your recent posts on Scott Turow and the Guild, combined with her obvious weakness as a representative of writers' interests, brings the whole issue to the fore once again.<br /><br />When are we writers going to finally create an organization that truly represents us? Millions of people just watched the same interview and will come away with the impression that our interests are aligned with the mammoth, corporate owned, New York houses. Who speaks for us? Who represents us, who is not in any way married to antique publishing and its corporate interests?<br /><br />You, Joe, are the only individual I can think of who truly has the voice, the reach, and the spine to present the real concerns of writers to the world. <br /><br />For the 99%+ of working writers, those of us who aren't deriving the benefits of membership in the New York club, no one gives voice to our concerns on the MSNBC's. Ms. Robinson clearly had little understanding of the vital issues at stake for us. Except for her lack of articulation and understanding of the issues, she might as well have been a spokesperson for a PR firm under contract with big publishing. She might be a great individual--I don't know her--but her heart and mind are in the wrong place.<br /><br />You, Joe, have become the rallying point for so many writers who want to get and keep a fair share of the pie. Billions are at stake, as you well know. If you would spearhead a new writers organization--a true Writers Guild--thousands upon thousands of writers like me would join and contribute. So many of us have toiled in the trenches for so long, as you did, who would love to tune in to a major news show and see someone who actually represents us.<br /><br />Otherwise, we will be left in the dust, once again, our futures determined by people who have no genuine understanding of what books and authors mean to the world as a whole. <br /><br />I refute the notion that books are no different than soft drinks or tires, mere commodities for a throwaway culture. I refute the notion that writers are no more than factory workers. I refute the notion that New York publishing is the big leagues, and we are Class D farm teams. The great thinkers of the world should at least have the opportunity to earn as much as factory workers.<br /><br />Will someone who has the means please lead the way? If that person is you, Joe, I, for one, will support you all the way.David Darracotthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13785993041003124038noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-43604947361762987582014-05-27T07:20:59.060-05:002014-05-27T07:20:59.060-05:00I'm only just reading this blog post on Tuesda...I'm only just reading this blog post on Tuesday morning, so yesterday when a friend recommended a book called <i>Fortune's Pawn</i> to me, I had no knowledge about the Amazon-HBG conflict.<br /><br />When I searched for the book on Amazon and saw the Kindle price was $9.99, I was very disappointed and decided I would get it from the library instead. I've gotten used to being able to get very good eBooks for somewhere between free and $5. When I saw the publisher is Hachette Book Group, I just rolled my eyes. McMillan has also lost sales by overpricing.<br /><br />That's something these legacy-published authors don't seem to realize--that their publishers' stubborn pricing policies are losing sales.<br />Pharosianhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11014081280833695697noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-37178620132625092122014-05-26T13:35:56.602-05:002014-05-26T13:35:56.602-05:00Here's how I know she doesn't get it. She...Here's how I know she doesn't get it. She raised the idea that publishing was an ecosystem, and a commenter pointed out that in that ecosystem, readers were more important than writers, to which she replied:<br /><br />5. You go on to state writers and readers are in a symbiotic relationship, where writers are fungible and largely interchangeable whereas readers are a precious resource. I am having difficulty wrapping my head around this one. Can you perhaps clarify?<br /><br />Head...DeskAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-46380916746258760572014-05-26T12:45:08.185-05:002014-05-26T12:45:08.185-05:00Hearing about stuff like this always makes me wond...Hearing about stuff like this always makes me wonder why so many of my writer friends insist on holding out for traditional publishing instead of self-publishing now and getting their work out there. It's not like they don't know the people I use for covers and editing.<br /><br />I would never remove the vowels from a comment I was moderating on my blog, I'd just remove it. Still, I'm trying to think of a single situation where I would need to delete someone's comment instead of just ignoring it if engagement didn't seem like a good option. Maybe if someone was posting home addresses for members of my family?<br /><br />The ranting blog post, poor handling of comments and passive aggressive tweet make me glad this is a traditional author. For once, it's not the indies making everyone look bad.Sydney Katthttp://authorsydneykatt.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-26707416515360332422014-05-26T12:33:21.032-05:002014-05-26T12:33:21.032-05:00I'd like to point out one detail that Joe didn...I'd like to point out one detail that Joe didn't mention: when you self-publish via Amazon, you don't (at least, most of us don't) get a preorder capability either. So on that one issue, bailing from Hachette will not solve Lilith's problems. (I'm hoping that Amazon will eventually follow Smashwords' lead and allow preorders for all its books (temporary disputes aside), self-published books included.Karen A. Wylehttp://www.karenawyle.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-37235421789489980432014-05-26T12:22:16.390-05:002014-05-26T12:22:16.390-05:00Mss Sntcrw's blg pst bggls th mnd. Pr thng, sh...Mss Sntcrw's blg pst bggls th mnd. Pr thng, sh s brnwshd b mzn Drngmnt Sndrm. <br /><br />'m s gld 'm slf-pblshd! Patrice Fitzgeraldhttp://www.patricefitzgerald.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-78767968908329466852014-05-26T06:03:07.922-05:002014-05-26T06:03:07.922-05:00Wow, in her defensive responses, the childish vowe...Wow, in her defensive responses, the childish vowel thing, and now her Twitter remark, she just comes off as an arrogant, snarky, condescending ass hat. I'd never heard of her before, and this is a lousy first impression. Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-897622091067163722014-05-26T03:52:35.723-05:002014-05-26T03:52:35.723-05:00Disemvowelling (dsmvwllng) seems like a lot of har...Disemvowelling (dsmvwllng) seems like a lot of hard work. Couldn't she just have deleted the offending comment?<br /><br />Still, got to love the creativity of the internet. I could fit more in my tweets if people could read that way.Chris Hollishttp://www.chrishollis-author.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-9174067806745091972014-05-25T23:32:45.986-05:002014-05-25T23:32:45.986-05:00And by telling legacy authors who have been drinki...<i>And by telling legacy authors who have been drinking the Kool Aid for years over and over and over that there is a better way, I'm lighting a path.</i><br /><br />I personally thought Joe was dead wrong when he first started talking about the self-publishing thing. Then I saw more and more of his predictions coming true and saw more and more of my friends following his lead and I couldn't WAIT to get out of my then current contract to self-publish too.<br /><br />Joe definitely lit that path. And many of us owe him a huge thanks.Rob Gregory Brownehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12785299355462748009noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-51195739060996188562014-05-25T21:58:26.663-05:002014-05-25T21:58:26.663-05:00God. *my glass of cabernet poised against my lips ...God. *my glass of cabernet poised against my lips as I read*<br />Damn.<br />Really? I mean, seriously?<br />Maybe its me, you know a newbie author with a modicum of success in my genre. But I just freakin' want to write.<br />Have been approached by a couple of publishers but after listening to their pitches found I didn't like what they had to offer. In fact, it kind of felt like they were trying to pick me up at a bar. "Hey, baby. You're lookin' all good. But with me on your arm I'll make you look even bettah!" Yeah. Right.<br />25% versus 70%? Even I can work that one out. Re-do my covers and my story but will wait six months to get the story out? Why should I lose six months of revenue for you to 'fix' my work that is already selling? Geesh!<br />Joe, I think you said it very well and was even gentle when you 'coached' Lili through her rant...plus, I learned a lot.<br />A win-win in my opinion!<br />~J.A. (Judy) Hornbuckle<br />www.jahornbuckle.com<br />J. A. Hornbucklehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17052929905955160076noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-58684118033607236962014-05-25T20:23:45.476-05:002014-05-25T20:23:45.476-05:00That's brilliant, William.
Barry and I want t...That's brilliant, William.<br /><br />Barry and I want to blog about this. If you'd like to be invokved, or have more to add, email me.JA Konrathhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-61128842528326993502014-05-25T19:06:08.992-05:002014-05-25T19:06:08.992-05:00Follow the link in her post the BarnesandNoble.com...Follow the link in her post the BarnesandNoble.com page for her book. Note the <b>retail list price</b> of the paper copy and the price of the ebook. Seriously, write them down or note them in the text editor of your choice. Do the same for every Hachette book that you can't preorder on Amazon. Like Silkworm, Rowling's latest. <br /><br />Now, look up the pricing list that Apple set with Hachette back in January 2010. You can find it in several exhibits here:<br />http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/apple/apple-te.html<br />(Look for emails from Apple on Jan 4, 2010 to the publishers. )<br />You will discover that all of those ebooks are priced according that list. B&N has obviously agreed to agency pricing with Hachette. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that because the 2 year restrictions on pricing under the settlement agreement for Hachette run out in Sept/Oct this year (and they don't want raise the price three months after a book comes out). <br /><br />Well, there is nothing wrong with it as long as both companies agree to it independently. That is what Hachette wants from Amazon. Amazon won't agree to that because they know if they do, every other Big 5 publisher will follow suit. Hachette picked this fight and it is one they can't win. William Ockhamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13795149116565627671noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-88840162264591463842014-05-25T15:52:27.122-05:002014-05-25T15:52:27.122-05:00Amazon is paying 30-40% of most author's royal...Amazon is paying 30-40% of most author's royalties through their innovations aimed at improving the customer experience. But most authors are not told this by their publishers and do not see where their sales are made on royalty statements. I might respect those authors who rail so strongly against Amazon if they precluded their publisher from selling their book(s) to Amazon in their contract. (Good luck with that. ) I hear some authors quietly advising fans not to shop at Amazon yet they gladly take their money. It is just more human hypocrisy, a theme one would think most novelists in particular would understand. Caleb Masonhttp://www.publerati.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-82031445758144999222014-05-25T15:44:55.937-05:002014-05-25T15:44:55.937-05:00Wow, I can't help but feel bad for Lilith. It...Wow, I can't help but feel bad for Lilith. It sounds like her livelihood depends a lot on the whims of a ton of people besides herself. That's incredibly precarious! And yet she's just not in a place where she's willing/able to ask tough questions of her status quo and experiment with solutions. (Complaining about Amazon isn't really a solution...)<br /><br />I hope she gets her rights back and takes charge of her own career! Tallyhttp://www.spiritsoftheearth.netnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-56728363124406306882014-05-25T15:02:32.373-05:002014-05-25T15:02:32.373-05:00Reading some of the latest comments over there lea...Reading some of the latest comments over there leads me to believe she not only writes fiction, but lives it as well.<br /><br />Cripes, I though my 4 year old was obstinate....Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-78105136871857827552014-05-25T14:36:19.216-05:002014-05-25T14:36:19.216-05:00Since its Lilith Saintcrow's blog, she can do ...Since its Lilith Saintcrow's blog, she can do what she pleases with it; she can write what she wants and if she pleases, she has every right to take the vowels out of the comments. But like everything, ever action has its reaction, and we know what kind of reactions her blog post and her behaviour got.<br />What I found disturbing is that the woman has authored and published 40+ books and according to her, she believes that her ability to pay her living expenses while writing depends on getting the next contract with Hachette or not: <br />“Amazon’s blackmail of my publisher makes it harder for my editor to justify taking a chance on me next time I’m up for a contract with them. (It isn’t fair, but it’s a business decision, and I understand as much.) This impacts my ability to write full-time, to continue producing those stories you love (or love to hate) at my accustomed rate. Because I have to pay my mortgage and feed my kids, and if this won’t do it, I will have to spend my time doing something else that will.”<br />Either Saintcrow has some large monthly expenses or she really, really suck in business and everybody is taking advantage of her including with her lovely and much loved publisher. (Of course, she could also be just exaggerating to get sympathy). Elkanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-24777415938471636312014-05-25T13:56:21.643-05:002014-05-25T13:56:21.643-05:00"Amazon is holding minimal stock and restocki..."Amazon is holding minimal stock and restocking some of HBG's books slowly..."<br /><br />Because Amazon doesn't want to be stock with a lot of Hachette product if Hachette decides not to renew their Amazon contract.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com