tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post1120110089112031180..comments2024-03-18T06:16:18.802-05:00Comments on A Newbie's Guide to Publishing: Guest Post by Selena KittJA Konrathhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08778324558755151986noreply@blogger.comBlogger300125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-28041776562853270162012-02-27T20:47:17.978-06:002012-02-27T20:47:17.978-06:00Selena:
Amazon did the exact same thing to me......Selena:<br /> <br />Amazon did the exact same thing to me...banned several of my books without explaining why, or what I'd done wrong. When I protested, they terminated my entire account, claiming that I violated their TOS by resubmitting stories after being told not to. I DID NOT, and can prove it...but they refused to even discuss the matter with me. And since there's no way to go over "Duncan C's" head, I can no longer post anything at all on Amazon (my largest source of income).<br /> <br />Now PayPal is trying to force censorship down the throats of my other publishers...and my books are being removed from Smashwords and who knows how many others. And I wonder why PayPal is doing this, when such a decision is going to hurt their bottom line as much as the authors who are supplying their income.<br /> <br />Consensual sex between adults is exactly that: consensual. And when it's written, it's nothing more than fantasy. Fantasy is not illegal, or worthy of censorship. They might as well ban J.D. Robb (my hero--I want to be her when I grow up!! LOL) for writing about murder! Or, as other people have suggested, the Bible. When you start really reading it, the number of explicit debaucheries are appalling!<br /> <br />I don't know where all this is heading...but I definitely don't like the handwriting on the wall!Becca Sinhhttp://www.becca-sinh.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-39524830460280468662011-01-09T02:09:28.164-06:002011-01-09T02:09:28.164-06:00So I tried, I really tried, to read all of the com...So I tried, I really tried, to read all of the comments to see if what I wanted to say had already been said but there are just too darned many. So I'm proceeding willy-nilly.<br /><br />The one thing I've found interesting in reading this (and clearly coming in quite late) is that no one, at least of the comments I read, has mentioned that this practice isn't just ebooks. Amazon has been doing this, probably daily, since it started selling digital content. <br /><br />I ordered the movie "Coraline" (because who doesn't love Neil Gaiman?) when it first became available for purchase - tells you how long ago this happened. I purchased it, not rented it. When I went back several months later to watch it again, it was removed. I have no idea when they removed it and I had to call and ask for a refund. I was told it was removed because they lost the license. Well, great. Why didn't you offer me a refund when you took it back? And I don't recall any vocal outcry like there was for 1984.<br /><br />Which leaves me to believe books are pulled from Kindles all the time. Movies are pulled all the time. Music probably isn't affected nearly as much because the music is usually transferred to iTunes or something so they have no direct access. I'm praying they don't come out with some crazy MP3 player that will only play music from them because you know it will lead to some new proprietary format that won't let you play it anywhere else. And if that wouldn't be crazy enough, people will buy it.<br /><br />All their digital content is open to removal from your archives at any time. Last time I checked, even the periodical subscriptions that you may have purchased are going to be tied to the serial number of your Kindle and *not* you - so hope you never have to get your kindle fixed if you have periodicals because you won't get yours back. I don't know if the periodical thing is still the case but at the time I was finally jumping on the ereader bandwagon, it was.<br /><br />And there have been complaints about this very practice forever and yet it hasn't changed, people still shop there and people will still continue to shop there. It's unfortunate but true. They will continue to take back what they bought and hope you never notice so they can keep their money. <br /><br />I would like to see an accounting of how much money they've "chosen" not to return to people who have no clue they are missing purchased items. I bet it's fairly substantial.<br /><br />I no longer purchase anything digital from them. If I ever purchase an ebook from them again, I will download it to my hard drive. I can't do that with movies unless I get software that allows me to record my computer screen so I won't be buying movies at all.<br /><br />The moral of this book I've written is that when dealing with Amazon and any digital content, buyer beware. This isn't an anomoly. It didn't only happen with 1984 or erotica. Amazon does this all the time with everything digital. They simply have a very poor business model when it comes to digital content and it's not stopping anyone from shopping there.<br /><br />I tend to think that the backlash just isn't going to mean much to them or their bottom line. It hasn't before and it probably won't ever.<br /><br />And that's why I went with a Nook.Cherylhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02333902683981665134noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-63409457224384659532011-01-03T18:57:56.223-06:002011-01-03T18:57:56.223-06:00"Most, like you, won't care. Because, as ..."Most, like you, won't care. Because, as they will be sure to note (as loudly and clearly as possible - again and again :) that they don't read THAT."<br /><br />Lol... *blush* sorry about that. :)Star-Dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14298850366884374226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-76359511757963238612011-01-02T18:33:13.334-06:002011-01-02T18:33:13.334-06:00Interesting topic.
After reading this, I had to w...Interesting topic.<br /><br />After reading this, I had to wonder why they aren't pulling the V.C. Andrews's books. They have both incest and incest with rape. And they are young adult novels.<br /><br />Is it only self-published books? So, if they are book printed by a "publisher" are those okay? Hmmmm....S. A. Soule, Creativity Coachhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07345161433926665847noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-10603015349272959212010-12-29T12:32:41.099-06:002010-12-29T12:32:41.099-06:00Just an FYI - Amazon is now banning books with &qu...Just an FYI - Amazon is now banning books with "rape" in the title:<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/259rdz5Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-60221466833781889562010-12-23T13:30:01.973-06:002010-12-23T13:30:01.973-06:00I personally find incest stories offensive for rea...I personally find incest stories offensive for reasons I have no interest in detailing here. However, I do this weird thing called not buying the book. Do most folks "use" such material for fantasy purposes and no other reason? Don't doubt it. Do the majority of writers who read books on forensics decide to use what they learn to kill people? Probably not...unless none of us are getting caught. I think almost any source of information, with the right mind, can be used to some unintended purpose.Chrysehttp://www.chrysewymer.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-79429382321776113432010-12-20T11:30:07.783-06:002010-12-20T11:30:07.783-06:00"I’m just saying, if Amazon has started getti...<i>"I’m just saying, if Amazon has started getting finicky, who knows where it might hit next."</i><br /><br />That's really the problem, isn't it? Will erotic incest fiction start to disappear from all virtual shelves everywhere? <br /><br />Most, like you, won't care. Because, as they will be sure to note (as loudly and clearly as possible - again and again :) that they don't read THAT. <br /><br />But what's next? There are many many bdsm titles, for example, that push the limits of consent. What will be next on the hit list?<br /><br />It's also going to be interesting to see which erotic incest titles ultimately disappear. I doubt Nabakov's Ada or Ardor will go away. Or Anais Nin's House of Incest. And there are many many erotic m/m books in the genre that have "twincest" (twin brothers having sex with each other). Will those be removed? <br /><br />Amazon may have started a very dangerous trend.Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-44589569825822185142010-12-19T13:41:35.094-06:002010-12-19T13:41:35.094-06:00And maybe – even though (if you’ll excuse my sayin...And maybe – even though (if you’ll excuse my saying so) I’m not really FOR anyone publishing books on excessive erotica or incest – maybe you could find another POD publisher for your other books. Lulu, perhaps, or something similar… I haven’t looked very much at the POD publishers so I couldn’t really name more than that. Sorry. Although, you might want to be careful with that as well… I’m just saying, if Amazon has started getting finicky, who knows where it might hit next.<br /><br />And anyway, I just finished a semester of Shakespeare: wasn’t his plays all about sex and violence and incest? (Though I will mention that the Bible does say somewhere that incest is wrong… just saying. And no, I didn’t have time to look it up on the spot, but I know it’s in there. Again… just saying.) What I’m thinking then is that perhaps what Amazon has against the books is the excess of the sex and incest as themes, and the lack of moral judgment… though, you’ll remember, I don’t read those kinds of books, so I wouldn’t really KNOW what they would consider “excess”.<br /><br />Anyway, those are my thoughts.<br /><br />*Steps back into the shadows where she can hide in safety.*Star-Dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14298850366884374226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-49088384558460548902010-12-19T13:41:01.764-06:002010-12-19T13:41:01.764-06:00*Steps out of the shadows where she’s been lurking...*Steps out of the shadows where she’s been lurking*<br /><br />I haven’t completely finished reading all the comments, but this is my outtake on the matter.<br /><br />First of all, I’ll just let you know outright that I don’t like erotic fiction, and I am certainly against incest… <br /><br />HOWEVER<br /><br />I can’t say I totally agree with what Amazon did either. Perhaps they’ve had some people pressuring them about the erotic incest thing taking over shelves, and that’s why they’ve removed the titles. I wouldn’t really know… this is not my kind of topic. But what I do know was that IF (and for me, this is a great big “if”) I was a Kindle owner who had purchased one of your books, Ms. Kitt, I would be pissed off if someone just took the title off my device… especially since it’s MY device, and I PAYED for the book. What does that say for the other writers who try to step out of the box? I’m a fantasy writer here (not that kind of fantasy writer). What if, one day, they just decided to ban horror because it was too scary? Where would “Frankenstein” go? Or what if it was decided that all Fairies were little devils incarnate: what would happen to “Peter Pan”? They don’t have a right to do that. They may have made the device, but now they’ve sold it to millions of people around the globe: it’s like they’re selling it with “strings attached” or something. Who wants to buy something like that?<br /><br />Warning the authors that they are removing their books is one thing, even if it’s really heartrending… And I mean REALLY heartrending. I know it would be awful to receive such notice, even though I haven’t personally. For that you have my sympathies. But then removing the books from customers who have already bought the books outright… who now own copies of those books… that’s just a really, really low blow. That’s hard. Really. And that’s why I think paper books will never completely go out: ebooks are too easy to completely remove from the archives. Sorry ebook people… this is the proof, right here. I’m not saying I don’t like ebooks… actually, they’re sort of starting to grow on me. But we need paper books if only to keep a physical record of things so that they can’t get lost in cyber space.<br /><br />As for the problem with refunding customers, I was wondering what would happen if you offered to email a pdf of the book to the customers who contact you about the problem? I don’t know how much it would help, but can’t many smart phones read pdfs? And we know that computers can…Star-Dreamerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14298850366884374226noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-90140207510400050272010-12-18T14:32:37.156-06:002010-12-18T14:32:37.156-06:00Phillip, could you define "normal" and &...Phillip, could you define "normal" and "normal erotica?"<br /><br />Phillip said:<br />Thoughts become actions. Before every building was a plan. Before every great work of art was an idea. And before every predatory act was a predatory fantasy.<br /><br />People are what they think, and their thoughts lead to acts. That's why advertising works. And if one thing is evident about advertising, it's that sex sells.<br /><br />Surely this is obvious?<br /><br />Me:<br />Phillip, could you please define "idea" and "fantasy" and differentiate between the two? You use the terms as if they are one and the same.<br /><br />Before every great work of art is an image, according to the platonics and neoplatonics, and not an idea. The term "idea" is an Anglo-Saxon reduction of the classical Greek notion of "image." As Jung said, "Image is psyche." And as Hillman said, "Imagination is the native activity of the soul." The Greek word for and notion of "soul" is "psyche." Psyche does not equal mind nor give rise to ideas. Unless your coming from a Skinnerian and/or purely neurological perspective your arguments are vague and unfounded.<br /><br />It is clear that sex sells but it is neither obvious nor accepted by a vast number of philosophers and psychologists that people are what they think. Why would you expect people here to be so ignorant that they accept what you say without question or criticism?<br /><br />Fantasy does not lead to destructive action. The repression of fantasy leads to destructive action. Fantasy is expressed through art and ritual when not repressed and when handled in a healthy way. Fantasy arises autonomously from the soul/psyche. And psyche, as understood by the traditions from which its elucidation arises,is an a priori archetypal aspect of human being, along with body and spirit. <br /><br />Psyhopathological predation and addiction arise not form incest fiction but form the repression by individuals and culture of fantasies of violence and, if you're speaking of pedophilia, of sex with immature and/or adolescent human beings.<br /><br />TAPWUSALAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-41774099123555833872010-12-18T09:10:28.776-06:002010-12-18T09:10:28.776-06:00> They (interestingly) have banned the highest-...> They (interestingly) have banned the highest-selling works of those types on the site...<br /><br />Whenever a corporation or bureaucracy does something seemingly inexplicable, it helps to ask the question: what are they optimizing for? In this case, if Amazon is evaluating products for banning based only on highest number of complaints, it makes sense. The books that get viewed the most, i.e., the highest sellers, are most likely to get complaints. Books no one knows about, even if they're the same kind of book, aren't likely to get very many.<br /><br />> Yet they pulled one of mine where the incest was between consenting adults and was a surprise to everyone at the end.<br /><br />Now it makes even more sense. It's quite possible a significant number of those who read your book were expecting more normal erotica, and weren't happy to find out in the end that it was all about incest. I could see that generating a lot of complaints, thus putting the book higher in Amazon's complaint-processing queue.<br /><br />> (I'm not even going touch your slippery slope argument in regards to fiction - it's too ridiculous to even posit).<br /><br />Thoughts become actions. Before every building was a plan. Before every great work of art was an idea. And before every predatory act was a predatory fantasy.<br /><br />People are what they think, and their thoughts lead to acts. That's why advertising works. And if one thing is evident about advertising, it's that sex sells.<br /><br />Surely this is obvious?Philip Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15407695870657587787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-87326842546873605122010-12-17T20:22:30.180-06:002010-12-17T20:22:30.180-06:00I'd rather write...not ARGUE.I'd rather write...not ARGUE.Jaye Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03022224640072697141noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-15262119963984173122010-12-17T20:12:20.769-06:002010-12-17T20:12:20.769-06:00Oops. Here's the tiny url
http://tinyurl.com/...Oops. Here's the tiny url<br /><br />http://tinyurl.com/2c736lkAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-68067508574424405982010-12-17T20:10:58.313-06:002010-12-17T20:10:58.313-06:00It seems to be a case of large corporations acting...It seems to be a case of large corporations acting to maintain their customer base:<br /><br />http://www.macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/national_organization_for_marriage_to_steve_jobs_youve_become_big_brother_w/Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-5028715654576426512010-12-17T19:22:03.054-06:002010-12-17T19:22:03.054-06:00"With all due respect to Selena Kitt, Genesis..."With all due respect to Selena Kitt, Genesis 19: 30-38 describes an act of rape, not incest, since Lot was drunk at the time and thus an unwilling partner."<br /><br />----<br /><br />It wasn't my quote, it was Will Belegon's - I'm no Bible scholar!<br /><br />(Do I need to add: obviously? :))Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-69961942361250480372010-12-17T14:18:49.497-06:002010-12-17T14:18:49.497-06:00With all due respect to Selena Kitt, Genesis 19: 3...With all due respect to Selena Kitt, Genesis 19: 30-38 describes an act of rape, not incest, since Lot was drunk at the time and thus an unwilling partner.<br /><br />A similar post was recently explored on The Kill Zone blog after Amazon pulled Phillip R. Greaves II's book on pedophilia. It was an interesting discussion with lots of thoughtful comments.<br /><br />http://killzoneauthors.blogspot.com/2010/11/first-thing-we-do-lets-kill-all-writers.htmlDaniel Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12214334186482741716noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-44336933295966021022010-12-17T10:03:33.219-06:002010-12-17T10:03:33.219-06:00"They're not going to ban books on a whim..."They're not going to ban books on a whim; they'll ban books when they'll lose more sales by not banning a book than by banning it."<br />--------------<br /><br />But that's not what's happening here. Amazon IS banning books on a whim, arbitrarily, with no regard to actual content. They (interestingly) have banned the highest-selling works of those types on the site and have done so without any warning to authors OR readers.<br /><br />There are books still on Amazon's virtual shelves containing incestual sex between adults and eight year olds. (at least, according to reviewers) Yet they pulled one of mine where the incest was between consenting adults and was a surprise to everyone at the end. There are actually many mainstream (mostly romance) books that use this plot device.<br /><br />So yes, Amazon has a right to remove what they like. And they're going to bow to pressure, like any company looking at their bottom line.<br /><br />The question becomes - who is the loudest group? Those who object to erotic incest fiction on moral grounds? (I'm not even going touch your slippery slope argument in regards to fiction - it's too ridiculous to even posit). Or those who object to censorship of said work?Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-18699374617574571502010-12-17T07:50:26.463-06:002010-12-17T07:50:26.463-06:00I get the impression that people in general feel, ...I get the impression that people in general feel, perhaps without being able to articulate it, that there's a healthy interest in sex, that there's also an unhealthy interest in sex, and that the difference between them is in accepting sex for what it is.<br /><br />That is, sex is subject to entropy; the pleasure of sex will wear out, and those with an unhealthy interest in sex strive to make it something it isn't. They try to make it last forever. And that leads to sexual addiction, and sexual addiction leads to sexual predation, because not only does the pleasure of each dose inevitably wear out, it takes more effort the next time to get the same high. Those are the universal laws of entropy and diminishing returns in action, and no amount of human effort, openmindedness, or enlightenment can make those laws go away.<br /><br />Thus, there's a distinct possibility that those who read erotica about incest are doing so because normal sex is no longer enough. That's disturbing. Books about incest aren't the end of that road, and I'd venture that many in our society would recognize that.<br /><br />A civilized society is one in which predators are repressed. It is therefore the reasonable perogative of a civilized society to determine what level of sexual material it wants available, and society has probably done so in this case.<br /><br />And I daresay that's the bottom line for Amazon. They're not going to ban books on a whim; they'll ban books when they'll lose more sales by not banning a book than by banning it.Philip Nelsonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15407695870657587787noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-91596531762153892042010-12-17T07:40:17.493-06:002010-12-17T07:40:17.493-06:00I strongly believe that Amazon has the absolute ri...I strongly believe that Amazon has the absolute right to sell what it chooses. I don't agree with removing from your archives, but definitely from the site itself. Want to sell soemthing Amazon says no to? Sell it yourself. I THINK you can do that on your own site using mobi or azw formatting, but I admit I'm unclear on that.<br /><br />Amazon bowing to boycott-like pressure from advocacy groups? Well, so does Proctor and gamble, etc. That is life in the corporate world. <br /><br />For the record, I do NOT believe that Amazon will back away from Indie publishing. Too many chicken littles here.<br />Rick AskenaseAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-12904085406939799412010-12-16T18:03:22.167-06:002010-12-16T18:03:22.167-06:00Selena, as a fellow writer, I admire your willingn...Selena, as a fellow writer, I admire your willingness to speak up and make yourself a target. I suspect your earlier forthright discussions over here about your ebook success, information that has value to me and many other writers wanting to make informed career decisions, played a role in the recent developments. And that's a damn shame. So, thank you.<br /><br />OT, aside to jt: my siblings are more likely to call me "sis" than "bro." Just FYI.<br /><br />But feel free to disagree. ;)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-14193309154082191252010-12-16T15:39:02.496-06:002010-12-16T15:39:02.496-06:00"Or am I being overly optimistic?"
----..."Or am I being overly optimistic?"<br /><br />---------<br /><br />Yeah, I'm afraid so.<br /><br />The reality is the books aren't going to be put back up. As Mark noted, Amazon can't go back now - imagine the headlines:<br /><br />"AMAZON PUTS INCEST TITLES BACK ON SITE."<br /><br />They're waiting for this "goatfuck" to go away. They've waited out worse.<br /><br />I'm just hoping the perfect storm keeps brewing, with removed taboo books + pedophile book + banned GLBT reviers + wikileaks...<br /><br />There's no other way to fight a "majopoly" like Amazon excerpt through the consumer. The more consumers who know - no matter which "side" they're on - the better.Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-16916857329554628172010-12-16T15:24:36.880-06:002010-12-16T15:24:36.880-06:00@ Selena...you're completely right. I mis-rea...@ Selena...you're completely right. I mis-read this...but if they made the books redownloadable, is it possible that the next step will be making the books available again? They do seem to want to please their customers & making books that customers want would seem to be part of pleasing their customers.<br /><br />Or am I being overly optimistic?<br /><br />Ruth Harris<br /><a href="http://amzn.to/ft97O7" rel="nofollow">Husbands And Lovers</a>Ruth Harrishttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15246050315747917109noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-35044646136994168332010-12-16T15:24:17.218-06:002010-12-16T15:24:17.218-06:00Hmm ... even if B&N and Amazon removed certain...Hmm ... even if B&N and Amazon removed certain titles at the same time, I think there's a HUGE leap to calling that market fixing. Anybody with an Internet connection can upload any book to any site of their own choosing, including the innumerable indie erotica publishers out there. There is literally NO barrier to the market at all. Amazon and B&N aren't engaged in price fixing (they're just removing products), nor are they manipulating the market in favor of their own products. If Target and Wal-Mart both decide to remove baby bibs with pictures of puppies from their shelves at the same time, is that also illegal collusion? I'm unconvinced there's even a whiff of illegal market manipulation going on here. <br /><br />And ha ha, Joe! I figured you'd go a different direction (I thought for sure you'd comment on Ma Baker's heaving bosom), but a good size joke is always appreciated ...Jon VanZilehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14026643422328853037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-77435703233957191282010-12-16T15:12:59.777-06:002010-12-16T15:12:59.777-06:00"I missed this - where is there collusion? th..."I missed this - where is there collusion? the books are still for sale on B&N, last time I looked...."<br />---------<br /><br />Olympia Press (who isn't self-pubbed and doesn't go through DTP) had their B&N account deleted the day before Amazon pulled several of their taboo books.Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-11291165.post-47076004036854922422010-12-16T15:07:15.455-06:002010-12-16T15:07:15.455-06:00"It's not clear whether that applies to t..."It's not clear whether that applies to the authors who complained on this thread that their books had been deleted."<br /><br />-----<br /><br />No, this is Yay for Kindle readers - not for writers ;) Amazon is just saying the books removed from people's archives were put back. Good of them, huh? Considering that pulling them in the first place was a violation of their own terms of service.<br /><br />The books themselves have not been restored to the site.Selena Kitthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17783685215421352626noreply@blogger.com